OldPerry
Forum Replies Created
-
I’ll be there!
Here’s registration information for anyone who is interested.
https://www.eiseverywhere.com/website/2895// -
Bubbles said:Would you set up an experiment with a standardized base formula and use corneometry to test performance as it relates to skin Moisturization
This is one of the challenges. I would use 2 controls, no treatment & the best ingredient . So I would start with petrolatum as the best occlusive agent & if something performs better, that would be my new “best” control. If you were using a finished formula, then I would compare everything to the best formula.
-
@Nubian - Interesting.
-
@Nubian - I was asking about how the formula you posted compares to standard (non-oil containing) shampoos. When you said “high foaming”, I was wondering about that comparison. I’ve not found oil containing formulas to be high foaming relative to non-oil containing shampoos.
-
High foam? I’m skeptical. How does the foam compare to a sulfate shampoo?
-
No, you can’t do that.
Chapstick often sells the product with a blister package and they put the ingredient list on the cardboard insert. But when they don’t have the blister package, they put the ingredient list on the tube.
https://www.chemistdirect.co.uk/chapstick-medicated-stick/prd-3c5
-
@Jar - how would you be able to tell that the hydrolyzed rice protein is damaged? Color change? Odor change?
Hydrolyzed proteins are all pretty much damaged proteins in that they maintain none of their original conformation after the hydrolyzing process. Essentially, it is just rice protein chopped up into short amino acid sequences.
-
This is one of the reasons I have a hard time recommending formulators or even contract manufacturers.
Providing a service like formulation requires more than knowledge of how to formulate. It also requires some interpersonal skills, business skills and ethics. Just because someone can whip up a good formulation, doesn’t mean they’ll do a good job for everyone.
I’d still recommend working with a formulator who has a science background over one who doesn’t. But that’s never a guarantee.
-
@em88 - You don’t necessarily have to measure the viscosity exactly. You can get a relative measure of the viscosity using a salt curve analysis. It might be a bit harder to see small differences but you could certainly tell the difference between watery liquids, slightly thickened liquids, and really thick liquids.
-
No, salt does not make hair dry.
-
I used to work on the VO5 Hot Oil hair treatment product. It turns out there was no “oil” in it.
The marketing people did a concept test that scored very well for an “oil free hot oil.” We never launched it though because it didn’t make sense.
-
If you define the phrase “oil free” to mean “doesn’t contain an ingredient with the word ‘oil’ in it” then their product is “oil free.” I think this would stand up to legal scrutiny, although I’m not a lawyer so don’t take that as legal advice.
Welcome to the wonderful world of marketing claims.
-
Personally, I wouldn’t let a client dictate to me what preservative system will be used. This is a terrible trend in formulation if you ask me.
But to your situation, I would agree to use the ingredients they want but get an agreement with them that you do not have to guarantee the product will be safe or stable. Make it clear to them that any microbial contamination will not be your responsibility. If the client wants to dictate how the product is formulated, that should take the responsibility of failure off of you.
As an aside, I wish instead of “green formulating” people practiced “safe formulating”
-
With SLES, Betaine, and CDEA you don’t need a thickener. Just adjust the viscosity with salt. Do a salt curve analysis.
-
Thanks for the rundown @GabyD. Very interesting. It is a useful lesson for future product formulators & marketers.
A few lesson I take from this…
1. Always run stability (including PET) tests on the final formula & the first production run!
2. Unless you have a lot of experience and knowledge, stick with parabens and formaldehyde donors. These preservatives are tried-and-true & also safe.
3. Don’t let your client dictate your preservative system without transferring the risk of microbial failure onto them.
4. Be weary of cosmetic formulators or other “experts” who are good on Instagram. They likely spend more time on social media than on keeping up with formulating.
-
GabyD said:I still don’t understand why we didn’t have the burning problem with the sample, only with the full pail. And it was bad. I am happy to PM some pictures if anybody is interested.
The burning sensation is likely caused by sorbic acid. (See page 26 of this safety report 0 https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/bbbe/1de833dfb7ebaf3959eaace0762e9b9ffb9b.pdf )
When the product has a pH of 3.9 you actually had more sorbic acid in the formula than the potassium sorbate. When you raised the pH to 5.8 you shifted the equilibrium so you had more potassium sorbate and less active sorbic acid. You reduced the irritation potential but also reduced the effectiveness of the ingredient as a preservative.
-
I suppose you can sign a longer term contract with the manufacturer locking in a set price for months or years and guaranteeing them some repeat business.
One of the standard procedures we had for any raw material was that we always had a second supplier. That prevents suppliers from doing things like that. And this would apply also to manufacturers. Always have a quote from a second manufacturer who could make your product if you needed to switch.
-
One major problem I see is that Microcare SB is a mix of sodium benzoate and potassium sorbate. They are much less effective when the pH is greater than 5.0.
If I were the ingredient supplier, that would be the first thing I would say.
-
ngarayeva001 said:@Perry, have you noticed difference in performance?
I’ve found that PQ10 works a bit better than PQ7 but it depends on the total formulation. With the right formula adjustments you could make them work interchangeably.
-
Polyquat 10 and 7 have different polymeric backbones. PQ10 is based on Cellulose, while PQ 7 is based on Acrylamide.
-
Do a salt curve analysis.
https://chemistscorner.com/salt-curve-analysis-how-to-control-cleansing-cosmetics/ -
I thought it might provide some conditioning benefits but it depends on the overall formula.
-
What is your question?
-
@Rimshah - Saponins are a rather harsh detergent which don’t foam particularly well and are difficult to formulate with. I’m not a fan. But if you like them, I encourage you to try them out.
-
@ngarayeva001 - yes, soapnuts. And yes, they are terrible for formulating but they are the only real naturally occurring detergent (from my perspective).