OldPerry
Forum Replies Created
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Sounds like marketingspeak to me.
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“ Natural and the definitions offered by private organizations such as Natrue, Cosmos, etc. won’t be recognized or necessary.“
This is kind of what happened to the Leaping Bunny seal for products produced in the EU. Once the EU banned animal testing, Leaping Bunny became mostly irrelevant.
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@MarkBroussard - Color me skeptical that anything like this will pass. Clarity to the market is not desired. Once you codify “natural” every company, big and small, can start claiming it. No one will use non-natural any more and natural would cease to be a separate market. Small companies will then have to compete directly with big companies without the benefit of fear marketing. I don’t see that going well for them.
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Cosmos and Natrue are simply organizations that just made up their own standard. There is nothing official about them. There is nothing stopping anyone from starting their own competing natural standard and providing certifications.
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@MarkBroussard - how do you figure? The lawsuit specifically calls out things commonly found in natural formulating like “caprylyl glycol, potassium sorbate, sodium benzoate, propanediol, ethylhexylglycerin, and citric acid”
I would agree with you if the lawsuit focused on things like PEGs and Dimethicone, but it is much more expansive. PEGs aren’t even mentioned. The lawsuit makes no allowance for “nature identical” or “naturally derived”.
If you are formulating in the natural space and you want to use something like citric acid, you can’t (if this lawsuit succeeds). As I’ve implied before, practically all useful ingredients in cosmetics are synthetic. Deodorant doesn’t grow on trees.
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@drjayseesunish - Hair mask and Hair oil are just marketing terms. They have no scientific definition. In the marketplace, hair oils are generally some liquid product that you put on your hair. This could be hydrocarbon based but you could also thicken up some water and call it a hair oil. Hair masks are generally a cream or lotion that you put in your hair. They are generally emulsions.
In terms of effect on the hair neither would be considered superior. Anything that can be delivered via a “hair oil” can be delivered via a “hair mask”.
Hair masks were introduced just to give consumers an experience to make them feel like they are doing something special to their hair.
The reality is that none of these products do anything other than condition hair. They DON’T make hair grow better. They DON’T do anything for scalp health. Those are all just marketing stories to get people to buy products that they otherwise don’t really need.
Hair care is pretty simple. All you need is shampoo, a conditioner, and maybe a styling product. All other products (except colors, chemical treatments) are marketing stories that provide little to no additional benefit.
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@MarkBroussard - The USDA does not regulate cosmetics and what the FDA does defer to the USDA is for the term “organic” not “natural”.
I think Oars + Alps could certainly make a case that their definition of “natural” fits with the legislation that is making its way through congress. According to the Natural Cosmetics Act, ‘natural’ means a product consisting of at least 70% natural substances and ‘naturally-derived ingredient’. I haven’t looked at their ingredient lists but I’m sure the lawyers at SC Johnson have thought of it.
I agree with you that I doubt we will ever get a definition from the FDA. What I think will happen is the same thing that happened when they tried to define “hypoallergenic”. They’ll set some definition, a court will rule against it, and natural will just become an empty, fluff marketing claim. -
Perhaps, but it will knock out a ton of ingredients and make the ones left really expensive. How do you make something like cetyl alcohol using a biological process? And are they going to count genetically modified yeast or bacteria as “natural”?
I agree natural won’t disappear but it may be relegated to products like a tub of coconut oil or shea butter. I don’t see how you can make a natural surfactant-containing cleanser.
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You can’t squeeze cocamidopropyl betaine out of a plant. You need synthetic organic chemistry for that.
But companies can claim anything they want right up to the point they are sued & have to pay significant fines https://topclassactions.com/lawsuit-settlements/consumer-products/beauty-products/tarte-cosmetics-class-action-says-natural-products-contain-chemicals/
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@Abdullah - Yes. I just don’t know what that would be.
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@Abdullah - that depends on the moisture level present on the surface of the skin. The thing responsible for the heat is the rearrangement of hydrogen bonds.
Water & glycerin both have the capacity to form hydrogen bonds. The H bonds with water are stronger (higher energy) than the H bonds with glycerin. So when you mix glycerin and water some of the stronger water-H bonds are transferred to glycerin-H bonds. This results in excess energy which is then converted to heat. Thus the warming.
If you have more glycerin than water, you’ll feel the heat. More water than glycerin you won’t feel it as much. -
Glycerin plus a lack of water
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It would be an interesting study. However, I think it would also be a bit misleading. If you are going to incorporate a humectant into a system, that will change the moisturization scores. The formulation matters for what you ultimately want to know.
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It depends on what silicones you are using. I don’t think it will work with dimethicone or cyclomethicone but probably would work with dimethiconol.
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@evchem2 - I think it is probably “bacteria food” :smiley:
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That’s because natural is not a consistent concept.
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That depends on the composition of your perfume and the solubility of the dye you want to use.
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@ketchito - agreed. On the plus side, consumers are not really that good at telling differences so matching performance isn’t really necessary if you have other aspects of the aesthetics right (fragrance, appearance, packaging)
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I mean that whenever you change any aspect of the composition of a surfactant system (e.g. concentration, surfactant type, etc), the viscosity response to salt addition will change.
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The viscosity/salt relationship changes with surfactant composition
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It is a reasonable question to which the short answer is…they don’t want to be bothered to sell it to you.
You have to understand that cosmetic raw material companies make money by selling as much of a chemical as they can. Their ideal customer is a big corporation like P&G or Unilever who will buy multiple tanker truck loads of a chemical. This keeps the factory going.
Their second tier customer is one who will consistently buy 55 gallon drums of some material. While selling in drums is not ideal, that can still make a big enough profit off a drum sale to make it worth it. Consider if it is a raw material that sells for $2 a lb, a 55 gallon drum ~ 480 lb = $960…add in fees, filling, shipping and each drum they sell makes them over $1000.
Now, consider a single consumer who wants to buy only a small amount, say 1 gallon. How much can they make from that? Even if they make the price 10x as much, they will still only be making $20 for a single sale. They would now need 500 more customers just like you to equal the sale of one single drum to a big corporation.
This is just not worth the hassle.
Companies like Lotion Crafter or Making Cosmetics have decided that for them it would be worth the hassle. So, the are a second tier customer to the raw material manufacturer (they don’t make their own ingredients). They’ll buy one of those 55 gallon drums, then pack it up into smaller containers. They increase the price and sell to individuals. If it is an ingredient that lots of people want, then that makes it worth their time to sell.
But it’s also possible that they can’t find 500 people who want to buy any specific ingredient. Or that the raw material supplier doesn’t feel like hassling with even a company like Lotion Crafter who only buys one 55 gallon drum a year. Remember these suppliers want to sell tanker truck loads full of ingredient, not 55 gallon drums. And certainly not 5 gallon pails.
So that’s why you can’t buy it unless you are a business.
One possibility is to get a small sample from the company. But they will only give/sell you this if they think it will lead to a big sale in the future. Such as if you were starting a new beauty brand. However, if you are just a consumer who wants to make stuff for yourself, unless you know someone you can’t really get it.
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@drjayseesunish - I think there is something you misunderstand about the formation of soap. TFM refers to Total Fatty Material. This doesn’t exactly equal “the presence of oil” in a soap.
To create soap you initiate a chemical reaction that converts triglycerides (oils) into soap which is a sodium salt of a fatty acid. While the system begins with an oil, the resulting chemical reaction is not an oil any longer. The oil part has been chemically broken down and converted to a single fatty acid salt.
So, something with a higher TFM means that it has a higher concentration of soap, not that it has a higher concentration of oil. For the most part, there should be no free oil in a soap bar.
People use different kinds of oils to make soap because oils are made up of different types of fatty acids such as Lauric, Myristic, Palmitic, Stearic, Behenic, etc. For example, coconut oil has a high concentration of Lauric acid while palm oil has a high concentration of Palmitic acid. Different oils are made up of different ratios of fatty acids. This can result is bars with different characteristics.
Price in cosmetics is not always related to the cost involved in making the product. It is much more related to the brand and brand positioning. But all things being equal, some oils cost more than others so it makes sense that the price of the final product would be different.
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There are no special benefits you will get from any parts of the hydrangea plant. Every benefit you might get can be obtained more safely and easier by other ingredients. If you specify what benefit you are looking to get, I can tell you an ingredient that will work better for you than parts of a hydrangea plant.
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On average, perhaps. In any specific instance, perhaps not.
You may be taking the metaphor of a micelle a bit too seriously. They do not last in some specific form for any extended period of time. -
“The derms also had a stake in the stem cell company soooo. But did spend a good amount of time telling me plant and human cells are the same. Red flag right away, but authority bias hit!“
@Rockstargirl - I always wonder about the quality of any derm who needs to supplement their income by selling dubious anti-aging skin care lines.