Model96
Forum Replies Created
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@MarkBroussard than you again for your response
Oh I see and I must misunderstand it then.
I read a scientific paper and it says:
“Several strategies have been developed to limit these processes, among them: controlling the presence of oxygen during formulation and storage, low pH and reduction of water content through the use of anhydrous/nonaqueous formulations.The addition of preservatives such as antioxidants and anti-chelating agents also prevents the degradation of the Vit C. In this context, molecules such as ferulic acid and sodium metabisulfite have shown good results.”How can we control the presence of oxygen during formulation and storage? I suppose that we will add laa at one of the last step of the formulation. And what are your thought on sodium metabisulfute? I read that its usually combine with disodium EDTA to help the vitamin C stabilize better.
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Yes, I am sure that some companies violated the skinceuticals patent. And I guess they don’t want to sue small companies but only big ones like Drunk Elephant. I didn’t understand why they lost the lawsuit against Drunk Elephant. The patent is a US patent. So, does it include worldwide?
The pH range is quite confusing, some says it’s from 2.5 to 3.0 (thats why a lot of companies make their serum outside this pH range) and others from up to 3.5 .
I must understand more about the patent so I don’t violate it. But based on this information, it’s not possible to formulate a vitamin C serum with ferulic acid&vitamin E that works well on the skin. I thought a ph of 3.2 would be okay.
I have tried a lot of pure vitamin C serum and it usually lasts less than 1month and a half. And in the fridge a bit more than 2 months. I never tried the timeless serum but I heard really good reviews. It’s like the number one dupe of skinceuticals CE ferulic. I think for the best quality price pure vitamin C serum with ferulic acid&vitamin E, there are the geek&gorgeous C glow (super fresh, 13$ for 30ml) and Wishtrend pure vitamin C (available in 15% and 21.5%). Today I am using the skinceuticals phlorotin Cf and I notice that all of these serums have a similar and weird odor. ????
Apart from the ferulic acid and vitamin E, what do chemist usually use to stabilize the LAA? They are antioxidants like glutathione, ubiquinone but they are expensive ingredients.
Sodium hyaluronate is in almost all the vitamin serum, what it is for exactly? Is it for hydrating and soothing the skin because the serum is acidic?Thank you all for yours comments!
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I just read on the US patent website and like you said the patent covers a combination of vitamin C, E and ferulic acid in a range of percentages. Also, it covers the ph range from 2.5 to 3.0 .
In my case, I will use a ph between 3.2 and 3.4 which is superior than the ph range patented. So, I will not have any issues.
There are many brands that have vitamin C, E, ferulic acid such as Paula’s choice, timeless, geek&gorgeous, maelove… and they use a range of 15 to 20% of vitamin C and a ph from 2.5 to 3.2.
I don’t understand how some of these products can be in the market if theirs pH are between 2.5 and 3.0 . Maybe they are paying something to skinceuticals?Yes, you are right. The packaging is more a marketing decision.
As a professional chemist, have you ever formulate pure vitamin C serum? The ascorbic acid is unstable so it can be challenging to formulate. Generally, how long does it take to formulate? I know it depends on the product but maybe from your experience you know the average time that it takes to have a good formulation. Also, what are the biggest challenges that chemist face when formulating pure vitamin C?
Thank you so much!!
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The serum will be used daily, in the morning or night. Most of 2ml ampoules are marketed to be used two times but in reality we can used more than that. In Europe, there are a lot of brands that sell vitamin C ampoules such as Vichy, Martiderm.. They packaged 10 ampoules and 30 ampoules for 10 days and 1 month of use which means two applications per day.
In my case, I want to package in five ampoules, it’s for daily used with one application per day, so it can last for ten days. The reason I put five and not ten is to fit the budget of a majority of people and it’s the range of price that people spend the most.
I would love to know your opinions/critics in my five ampoules set.I read the study done my skinceuticals for the CE ferulic (15% LAA) and like you said, it’s patented. So, we are not allowed to use the exact concentration of vitamin C, ferulic acid and vitamin E. For us, we use a different percentage of vitamin C (10%), ferulic acid and vitamin E. Thus, it won’t be a problem right?
Personally, when I use a 30ml serum, i never finished it because it has oxidized after half of the bottle. So, I prefer pure vitamin C serum in a small format like 2, 5 and 10ml.
I think the two ml format is convenient for the users. It has some advantages like travel friendly, we don’t have to worry about the oxidation but it’s more expensive to produce, you have to be careful since it’s made of glass…Thank you so much for yours comments, it really helps me a lot
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I am currently choosing the manufacturer and the chemist. And I am choosing one that has some experiences formulating ascorbic acid serum but there’s not a lot. They usually formulate with its derivatives.
You are right, it might be irritating for some people. I was inspired by the skinceuticals vitamin c silymarin which has 0.5% of salicylic acid and the la roche posay C10.
I am thinking of switching the salicylic acid to a PHA ( gluconolactone) which is less irritating and also has some antioxidant benefit. What do you think?
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Actually I want to make a pure vitamin C (Laa) serum in a concentration of 10% with a Ph at 3.3.
+ salicylic acid 0.5%
+ antioxidants & soothing ingredients like ferulic acid, vitamin e, panthenol, zinc, oat extract, licorice root extract ~ 1-2%It’s for normal to oily skin. And it’s supposed to be soothing as well.
What do you think of my actives ingredients list? Should I add or delete some ingredients? Is my vitamin C serum hard to formulate?I know that vitamin C is very unstable. So, I choose to put the serum in a 2ml glass amber ampoule.Thank you again!
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Thank you for the answers @jemolian @MarkBroussard
For the Krave beauty product, the oat extract is listed as the first ingredient in the korean website. And the second last in the Us website. So I guess US norms are stricter than the Koreans ones. I wonder if you know about the EU norms?
Inci list (Korean website):
Oat extract (766,268ppm), Butylene Glycol , Caprylic / Capric Triglyceride , squalane , 1,2- hexanediol , trehalose, behenyl alcohol , ildi methyl taurate / ammonium acrylate V Pico polymer
The Skii essence has good ingredients concentration but it is so expensive lol -
Thank you for your answer jemolian!
Yes it is pretty misleading for the consumers.
But as a consumer how do you know if they use 90% of a solution extract instead of 90% of raw extract ingredient? For example for green tea, snail mucine, propolis …
Do companies have the right to do that? Don’t we have an organization that control these kind of misleading information?Yes I saw a lot of products that use a high percentage of oat extract.
For example in Oat so simple moisturizer from Krave beauty. They say that they use 79.8% of oat extract. In this case, it’s mostly likely that they use a solution of oat extract right? So we don’t know the pure concentration of raw oat right?INGREDIENTS: Water, Butylene Glycol, Caprylic/Capric Triglyceride, Squalane, 1,2-Hexanediol, Behenyl Alcohol, Ammonium Acryloyldimethyltaurate/VP Copolymer, Avena Sativa (Oat) Meal Extract, Ethylhexylglycerin