Microformulation
Forum Replies Created
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@David I agree. I avoid any work outside of North America for the same reasons.
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I wish I could. I think I could do the Formulation. However, being in the enviable position of being booked up until Mid-June, I can pass on any projects that are out of my primary area of practice. Rather than leave them in the cold I usually promise to make a referral as I will in this case.
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If you are interested and this is a project you would like, email me and I will forward the sales lead.
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I see these online controversies all the time and while they make for entertaining reading, usually both sides of the issue are placing too much emphasis on speculation and hearsay. In the end, I think it is best for someone to simply call it to the FDA’s attention if you are so passionate about it and trust the FDA to respond. They will follow through.
On the other side of the issue, if I were a manufacturer trying to offset the speculation, I would simply send the product out for third party testing and/or consult a Regulatory person. In that scenario they can quickly and quietly become compliant. Interesting enough, the Mold Test Kit she refers to is for testing your home for mold, not for testing finished goods. However, these tests can be out-sourced easily and affordably, by a Third party in such a manner that there is no conflict of interest.
Once that is dealt with, I refuse to participate. My New Years Resolution has been to eschew these emotionally charged discussions. People get angry, the situation escalates and false data is promulgated. In the end, a source can be consulted regarding the mold issue and another competent source can weigh-in on the materials. This objective solution gets thrown to the wayside, especially as these topics gain momentum.
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Carbamide peroxide.
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Also, mineral content could affect the height and formation of foam in a cleansing system.
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While this site is a great resource, I think in this is probably more of an area to read about and study offline. It is simply to broad and like many topics, new knowledge will lead to additional questions. I will share that some of the best advice on anti-oxidants and ROS has come from Chemists with experience in the Food Industry. This is a huge topic for that sector.
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I don’t know as I would edit or delete the post. It is obvious that you have taken some of the advice to heart and I think the information which you receive will be beneficial. Don’t take any of it as an attack. The reason so many chimed in was that we get these “I have an idea that nobody ever thought of” sales contacts frequently. Your initial message which may be interpreted as heavy handed is fairly representative of someone with a strong Business acumen but new to the Cosmetic Industry. The Industry is a unique beast and you will need to learn it’s quirks. The tone is solely a red flag since many of us have had clients who have never evolved to dovetail with the Industry and this has killed a project, made them look bad and also caused stress they would not take on voluntarily. We have all had “that” client. He/she calls daily and expects to discuss the progress daily. We have all come in on Monday to 15 emails which arrived after the close of business and typically the last one (received at 10PM Sunday) is “why don’t you answer my emails?!!”
It is the clients which evolve that will be successful. I will be honest and say that I frequently will tell a client “I would love to work with you but not yet.” I advise them to look into a Business Plan, do a complete Product Development and check other sources. Several of these “red flag” clients have circled around 12 to 18 months later and been successful.
Keep in mind as many have said, ultimately we do this as a Business and with the increased activity in start-ups there really is more work than consultants. Also, honestly a success internally for us is an approved prototype. I go further and really only work with lines I feel will make it to the market. If your product fails, it is not likely to be the Formulators fault. I could make the greatest product in history and (sarcastically) win the Nobel prize in Chemistry, but without solid and competent marketing the product would flop. Conversely I have made very straight forward solid products which met their marketing claim through common raw materials which have succeeded through great marketing.
Good luck with the project. If done with the right state of mind, it will be a challenging yet educational experience. Simply remember that you need to get insight into how the market works and learn how to communicate in the unique environment. With good research, a strong work ethic and the ability to “know what you don’t know”, you can be successful.
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I still think the MOQ’s will be an issue although if they provide the materials albeit it becomes their issue. I still believe that @MarkBroussard can weigh-in on it best since he has very recent experiencing doing exatly what we are discussing. In the end I think the MOQs for material and packaging will be the biggest hurdles.
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This is an interesting dilemna although I will say @Bellassi has really given you a great answer based upon real world experience.
The dilemma is that many “naturalistas” react with horror about sulfates causing the skin barrier to temporarily be compromised. What is interesting is that the saponified soaps have a similar transient effect on the skin barrier as well due to the higher pH. I have read some Journal articles stating that unless there is an underlying medical issue where the skin barrier is already compromised, the issue is really not that therapeutically significant. So we bash sulfates just because someone says it is bad and go “natural” with a material which has the same minor issue as well. I understand that sulfate free is the marketing reality but it is really an issue of looking further into WHY there is a scientific or medical concern not just accepting the online buzz solely. I guess my long winded argument is don’t lead with “I use a natural soap because sulfates are so bad.” Both have their limitations. -
@markbroussard I can sympathize. I have office hours 9AM to 12PM M-F. When I have an available slots I will do a gratis call with a small prospective line even though it is obvious they are under funded. I will advise them to do a Business Plan and to investigate costs. I am careful since these small lines are unfamiliar with the Industry and will be the first to allege you are overcharging them. Just this week I had a caller try to counter on my fees and offer me $500 instead. I had to be blunt and say “I am working 6 days a week now with what I charge, I am not interested in working 7 by dropping my fees.”
On topic. just this week I have gotten 3 requests for Matte Lipstick and a Zintro request as well.
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Some were able to sneak through. At one point Michelle Rodriguez at Prospector recognized a company email (soandso@soandso.com) as credentials. However, as even she admits it is not terribly difficult to set-up these emails. In the last 6 months or so she has to either speak with them on the phone or get a reference. I get emails from her all the time asking about SC companies. She says that they have had complaints from some distributors. Also, the chemical distributors are also following-up more. I think others can support this as well.
My address is not a Commercial address since I consult out of my home and my lab is a separate finished garage (the old owner was a gunsmith so the garage is converted). In 99% of the cases I can get supplies directly here. In some cases (Dow Corning, Nexeo) they require a commercial address. I use a friends warehouse address in that case.
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@MarkBroussard The samples can be used to some extent but that window is narrowing as well. I speak to multiple (>5 distributors a week) and they all say that they are being charged to investigate the credentials of the requester (if unknown) as well as end use and expected quantities that may be purchased. Too many Crafters (who may never buy ever) have gotten onto Prospector and begun ordering samples vice buying from a repacker. A week doesn’t go by without a call “Do you know such and such in Charleston who is requesting samples?”
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Filling is an area where there is a need. However, you really need to be able to offer more sophisticated (and more microbial resistant) packaging such as tubes and tottles. Also, getting the word out will take some effort but would be worth it.
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I think Mark Broussard has tried this and had some recent experience. The biggest problem with short rum contract manufacturing is Minimum Order Quantities (MOQ’s). Bringing in outside Formulations you will see the work of numerous Formulators and as such a wide gamut of materials and suppliers. Often they sell in large quantities. Recouping these materials costs (especially since the material may never be used again and would age out of your inventory) is difficult as you will need to recoup these remaining material costs will have a dramatic impact on smaller runs.
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“Cruelty free” is for the most part a marketing tool. The “Leaping Bunny” seal can be used if each Raw material supplier provides a “Free From Animal Testing” declaration usually on letterhead. Many of the suppliers have them already supplied. Honestly, in doing the leg work to get this certification for clients, I have only had one solitary material not have a “Free from Animal Testing” letter available. Colate the letters, the TDS’s, the MSDS’s and then pay their fee. You get to use the seal and they also list your product in their list of Leaping Bunny Certified products.
There is no real link between “Cruelty Free” and the source (petroleum, plant, synthetic).
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I do quite a few US FDA Monograph OTC Formulations. Some of the OTC actives can dwarf the cost of many if not all Cosmetic Raw materials.
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I think they used the Kerabase LC in this Formula.
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For intact skin it is really not an issue as the skin is very resilient. In certain disease states where the skin mantle is already compromised, the Dermatologists I consult for will have the patient d/c cold process soaps.
Lastly soaps and Cosmetics don’t “cure” diseases.
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Those are valid IUPAC names for components that occur naturally in Lavender not artifacts of pesticides. Note that everything is made of Chemicals.
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Same here. I get a request about 3 times a week and multiple Zintro proposals for Matte Lip Stick.
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We use the Guidelines provided by the PCPC in regards to stability testing. Perry did an outstanding job on a webinar that explains it very thoroughly.
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I consulted with a Vet Dermatologist on several products. She provided several references stating that canine skin is best suited to a 5-5 to 5.9 pH.
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This would be an OTC product and very difficult. Also I don’t believe that it is allowed or would be safe to use the AHA’s with a BHA (Salicylic acid, OTC).
No offense please, but your questions show that you may not be ready for such a product. AHA’s must be used within certain limits of percentage and pH. Salicylic acid is difficult to dissolve and an OTC, requiring a great deal more due diligence and documentation. Niacinamide becomes nicotinic acid below a certain pH.
These are not innocuous compounds which lend themselves to crafters or even smaller lines without an experinced Chemist.
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Ingredient List Below. It is NOT a liquid soap type product and that is pretty clear to any seasoned Formulator. Is this something you have the experience to make?
Water, Sodium Laureth Sulfate, PEG 8, Coco Betaine, Hexylene Glycol,
Sodium Chloride, PEG 120 Methyl Glucose Dioleate, Zinc PCA, Sodium
Hydroxide, Citric Acid, Sodium Benzoate, Phenoxyethanol, Capryl Glycol,
Parfum