Microformulation
Forum Replies Created
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Nonetheless, you are attempting a physiological change, which is a drug claim. It doesn’t matter if your product is a Pharmacological agent, an herbal product or even the sweat of sugarplum fairies! It is a disallowed claim.
As many have mentioned, if this were a viable claim, someone would have utilized it.
Sorry to burst your bubble, but your reliance of the limited studies is a bit naive. You will see this as you evolve in the field. I think @Belassi has been helpful in relaying his progression from a naturalistic bias towards the “natural” products to a Science based realism. He is not being negative and in fact is giving you good advice. “…I suppose you may have formulated wrong…” disregards this journey.
Just because someone gives you a fact based rebuttal of your marketing based paradigm, they are not being unhelpful Your response came off as petulent and has kept you from seeing the great advice that experienced Formulators in the field offered to you gratis.
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@Belassi is absolutely correct in every point.
Hair loss or slowed growth is alopecia, a disease state. As soon as you propose a physiological response vice a Cosmetic (hence visusal), it becomes a drug. You can play with the semantics but it doesn’t change that root fact.
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You’re welcome. I have done almost 100 of this DHA products in my lifetime. One of my first clients when I went into Consulting was a large self-tanner company and they hired me to update their Formulas which were at that time over 10 years old.
The frustration in this Market is that during the R&D period they want darker (more DHA) and faster (not possible as the Maillard reaction works at it’s own pace). You can add Erythrulose to make the tan more natural looking (less brown with red contrast) or add Caramel (immediate Cosmetic browning). With these “tricks” they will “begrudgingly” accept your Formulation. Then they go into pricing and suddenly it becomes “we need it too be X dollars per gallon” in order for our clients to buy it. Interestingly enough this is also a sector where “natural” or “organic” hasn’t taken hold. The end user simply wants performance and for the most part cares little about those issues. Several “organic” spray tans have been introduced and due to price have flopped spectacularly.
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It would not be very effective in a powder product. If you study the fundamentals of DHA and the Maillard reaction, this will become obvious. It penetrates the very outer layers of the skin and reacts with proteins to cause browning. For this to occur it must be in a solvent. Generally the challenge with DHA is demands for darker and faster. You will not achieve any significant browning.
No offense, but this is why you start with the basics, learn how a raw material works and look at starting Formulas easily available from the suppliers. We have to do our homework!
https://chemistscorner.com/self-tanning-cosmetic-formulation-basics/
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You will dissolve it into a solvent. It is heat sensitive and usually added at the end of the process.
- The final formulation pH must be below 5 for DHA stability.
- Avoid incompatible ingredients, especially those that contain
nitrogen; go beyond the INCI name and look at the full spectrum of
compounds in the raw ingredient, since even trace amounts of these
materials can cause problems. - When creating emulsions, add DHA as if it were any other sensitive
ingredient—i.e., at the end of the compounding process to avoid contact
with heat. - Evaluate stored DHA periodically to check for degradation. Using a
raw material that has degraded can cause variability in formulation
stability and color development. - Evaluate extracts and other formulation additives in solutions of
DHA prior to creating full formulations to rule out incompatibilities.
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You can get it from other suppliers. Try Cola Teric1C from Colonial Chemicals.
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There are also “benz” compounds involved in physiological enzymatic pathways in your body, so in that case you would be allergic to yourself or exhibit an autoimmune issue.
The key point is that “benz” is not a family of related compounds and it is incorrect to lump them all together. The “benz” is a naming system for a molecular structure that is so ubiquitous that an allergy to all would be impossible.
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@David I imagine that in order to have a consistent product, filling the phases separately and by weight is the most efficient and effective manner. I didn’t want to add the additional manufacturing costs to the project so we went a different way.
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The directions are to “Shake Well” before using.
Here is the ingredient list;
Aqua / Water / Eau, Cyclopentasiloxane, Isohexadecane, Sodium Chloride,
Poloxamer 184, Hexylene Glycol, Dipotassium Phosphate, Benzyl Alcohol,
Potassium Phosphate, Quaternium-15, Benzalkonium Chloride, Parfum /
Fragrance, Citronellol, Geraniol.Essentially you have an aqueous phase and a silicone phase. When you shake it, it becomes a white cleanser type product. In about 30 minutes it returns to the original appearance. I have been shaking it over and over for days now as I fidget and I am still seeing good phase separation. I found a similar starting Formulation which seemed straight forward. I was just concerned with the ability to get it packaged correctly. It is for that reason I have backed out of this type product.
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They are trendy and common in Make-up removers. Here is a respresentative product, Lancome Bifacial Cleanser. It is hard to see but it isn’t a partially filled bottle, but two separate phases.
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Let me explain the hoopla for you so you can see why so many are urging caution.
Firstly we have the solubility issues. AHA’s are generally water soluble not water soluble. Salicyclic acid is only soluble in very specific organic solvents for the most part and even this takes some knowledge in the selection of the solvent and the process in which to dissolve the SA in these solvents in a stable manner.
Next is the question with the min/max levels. Minimum levels are essentially zero. Minimal therapeutic levels vary a great deal from AHA to AHA. Remember the term AHA describes a group of compounds with differing properties. SO the question (simply due to its vagueness) is difficult to answer. AHA’s can be dissolved at high levels, in fact at levels far above the safety limits. In general, the Cosmetic Ingredient Review (a great source of the safety of Cosmetic raw materials) recommends no more than 10% AHA’s and not less than a 3.5 pH. This pH would need to be accurately measured with a meter, not strips.
Salicylic acid is even more regulated as it is an OTC ingredient. The allowable percentage for it’s use in acne is delineated in the FDA Acne monograph. It also has been used in peels and wart products, but at extremely high levels, a Formulation that requires great care and knowledge.Lastly we have the labeling and after use safety issues. The AHA’s require a sunscreen warning and the exact verbiage can be found in multiple sources. The regulatory and labeling requirements are found in the OTC monograph.
It should shortly become apparent that this is not a simple, innocuous DIY product. It will require knowledge, equipment, special solvents and great care.
I will close with an additional glimpse of why many also recoil at these products being approached in a cavalier manner. The DIY movement is strong in Cosmetics but there must be a clear line delineating what is appropriate for this sector. In many cases people will have more reluctance in exploring how to repair their vehicle over the internet than they would in doing such a potentially dangerous product. Let me be clear and say that I don’t know your background and I am not labeling you as a DIY’er. It is a blanket statement. Even someone with formal training and the proper support would put in extensive research before attempting this type product.
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Time to hire a Consultant if that is a product you want to make. It does rightfully requires knowing the Fundamentals.
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Also free Formulations are not just given out outright. Many of us do this as a kiving. If you are trying to design your own Formulation we will assist if you provide the information. Asking for Formulations outright is a bit much.
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@Bobzchemist Thanks as well. I was waiting for you to weigh-in.
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@johnb You are definitely confirming my suspicions in regard to this job. The client is a start-up, albeit a well financed start-up and I think they will be unable to deal with a filling process that will eliminate most manufacturers. I am leaning towards the emulsified product even more.
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This can be easily adapted. I use Excel all the time. Let me know if you need any help.
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@Bobzchemist so rightfully pointed out your issue is in the process (manufacturing). This really needs effective mixing over a period of time. A proper mixer is key.
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You will likely need to heat the mixture to decrease the viscosity to get good solubulization.
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Are you pre-mixing the oil with the Polysorbate 80? IT should be pre-mixed and a homogeneous mixture obtained. Then it is added to the water. For brevity, it is usually best to start at a 5 Poly 80 to 1 oil ratio. This usually works and you can titrate downwards.
That said, I have always gotten better results with PEG-40 Hydrogenated Castor Oil.
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Again, I will say that if you seek them out, there are some very knowledgeable people making Soaps who have many years of experience. Granted, you have to wade through a lot of misinformation, but there are some pearls amongst all the swine.
As pointed out, most of us have some Academic knowledge but in Cosmetic Chemists there are many with less practical experience. It is really not a mainstream product for the most part.
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When did SoapQueen become “a very reputable source in the cosmetic chemistry industry?” It is a blog featured by Brambleberry with no citations and no credentials.
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By the way, there are some good and knowledgeable Facebook Soap groups that cover this. The posters have more experience and practical knowledge in these areas than you give them credit for or likely have yourself at this point.
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Even though it is not a Cosmetic, I would suggest if you are making a retail product you follow cGMP. This would be a good idea even if you are making widgets.
Your position is reckless and dangerous otherwise!!!!
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I meant money in regard to meters. I have never heard a great argument of strips over meters unless someone was trying not to spend the money on a meter. A pH Meter with calibration capabilities is the way to go and arguably preferred under cGLP.
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The meters are much better than strips. If it is a price issue it simply is so. The litmus strips do not have the proper range.