[megcapati]

MarkBroussard said:

@megcapati

There’s a very healthy market for natural dishwashing liquids, particularly for mom’s with newborns … a subset of the New Mom/Baby Market.  Glucosides would be your best surfactants to use in this application thickened with Xanthan Gum … you’ll need the CP Kelco xanthan gum that gives a clear solution.  And, make sure you use food grade preservatives.  It’s a nice niche target market willing to pay a premium.  Keep it simple … scents & colorants are not welcome by this market segment.

Thank you for your wonderful input! I have actually read about glucosides and may try that instead.

[megcapati]

Gunther said:

The problem with “natural” saponified soaps is that they’re too harsh, way worse than synthetic dishwashes.

Maybe there’s a niche market for MILD, make-believe “naturals” like glucosides (derived from natural glucose), thickened with natural Xantan gum or something like that
but you’d need to spend countless hours reading AND experimenting yourself to get a good enough formulation.

CDEA is far from natural, BTW.

Why bold experimenting yourself? I did experiment before I asked here. 

I used CMEA, btw.

[megcapati]

Belassi said:

How do you propose I make it natural? Should I just use Sodium lauroyl sarcosinate?
The purpose of a dishwashing liquid is to wash dishes. Such products are part of the biggest mass market imaginable and as such, subject to economies of scale that result in incredibly low-cost production. Before you get any further with this idea I suggest:

1. Go into the supermarket and find the lowest priced and the highest priced product. Adjust price for 1Kg of each. Calculate the average.
2. Calculate your own sale price for your proposed ‘natural’ version, including labour, packaging, and marketing, plus a 50% retail margin.
3. Compare YOUR retail price per kg with the one you calculated for the retail products earlier.
4. Do you still think you have a chance of selling in competition with them? Even when your ‘natural’ product does not work as well?

Just trying to save you possible disappointment. Unless of course this idea is only for YOU in which case, fine.

Hello I appreciate your concern for the market price but I don’t really plan on being a millionaire out of this. I just want to be able to make and use a natural dishwashing liquid. That’s it.

[megcapati]

Belassi said:

Likely, the reason is the excessively high pH. Potassium cocoate must be about pH 10? You can’t lower it either. This kind of thing is why the world moved to synthetics. Further, potassium cocoate is terrible to the skin, much worse than even SLS.

How do you propose I make it natural? Should I just use Sodium lauroyl sarcosinate?

[megcapati]

JonahRay said:

Have you tried starting with a lower concentration of salt and increasing at small increments because if you put too much it will just thin right out again.

Yes I have. But I havent increased more than 1% as I didn’t see any changes, compared to when I use SLES or LABS 

[megcapati]

Formulation:
Aqua
Hydroxyethyl Cellulose 0.5% (ive already tried natrosol too same result)
Potassium Cocoate 25%
CMEA 1% (as per @belassi)
NaCl 0.5%
Preservative

When I mixed cocoate + cmea = good product but no viscosity
When I mixed cocoate + cmea + thickener = the picture above happens

Help?

[megcapati]

ozgirl said:

Have you tried thickening the Potassium Cocoate without adding the CMEA to determine how much salt it takes to thicken. Maybe try looking for information on thickening liquid soap because that is essentially what you are trying to do.

What is the active concentration of your potassium cocoate?

CMEA is often pearl looking when dissolved in water with no other surfactants.

I havent tried that. Im thinking that maybe this my CMEA (pearlike) is the culprit since I heat it to about 70degC before it can dissolve. But I let it cool to room temp before adding other ingredients. My supplier said he has a liquid form of cmea but is a bit diluted. Maybe ill try that. Do you have any suggestions for the thickener besides salt?

[megcapati]

Can someone help me

[megcapati]

UPDATE: After putting the remaining ingredients, the product is now clear. BUT…there’s no viscosity. I already up the NaCl to 1%. Should I introduce a thickener? Any recommendations? 

[megcapati]

For transparent soap? We use myristic, strearic, and lauric acid

[megcapati]

@ngarayeva001 i did the same process again and carbopol has been added 4 hours ago before i took the photo

[megcapati]

@ngarayeva001 no not like that. it’s purely liquid. ill try it again later and take a photo so you can see. 

[megcapati]

@ngarayeva001 still didn’t work

So I added my EDTA in my water. Heated till 50C, made a vortex and added my MAP slowly. Maintained temp at 50C until MAP was fully dissolved. Removed it from heat and added my carbopol for it to hydrate. After a while I mixed it and same result as the previous trial without heating. There were white small lumps.

Look what I just read: 
“For systems containing > 1% TS of sodium ascorbyl phosphate or magnesium
ascorbyl phosphate, Carbopol® Ultrez 20 polymer can be combined
with nonionic rheology modifiers such as xanthan gum or HEC.
Combining xanthan gum with Carbopol® polymers is recommended
because the thickening and stabilizing is more effective with Carbopol®
polymers than xanthan gum by itself; the aesthetics and sensory of
xanthan gum are improved by blending with Carbopol® polymers; and
combinations thereof give some options in formulating high electrolytecontaining
systems.”

[megcapati]

@ngarayeva001 what should I measure 1%? do i have to put EDTA already or just water first then MAP then carbopol?

[megcapati]

ngarayeva001 said:

How much MAP do you use? This is a reason I don’t like carbomers very much, they can be too sensitive to the process. Try adding carbomer to your waterphase right after EDTA. So, water=>EDTA=>MAP=>niacinamide=>carbopol. Then add your preservative, perfume with solubilizer and neutralize. If that doesn’t work, replace carbopol to Sepimax Zen (this will work for sure). But as per my experience MAP doen’t break viscosity of polymers like some other derivatives. Do you have sodium carbomer? Try that one as well. You don’t have to neutralise it.

Hi. I used 1% as recommended by you.

I did water=>EDTA=>MAP=>niacinamide=>carbopol then other ingredients left and it still didn’t work. Even after neutralizing. It was liquid and MAP was just not mixed with the solution, it formed numerous small white lumps. 

Sadly, I dont have sodium carbomer nor sepimax zen. Will try to get one.

[megcapati]

ngarayeva001 said:

@megcapati So, I got curious and googled ASCORBYL METHYLSILANOL PECTINATE. I couldn’t find any paper that prooves it’s efficiency. Maybe you want to consider another derivative? If so, I would say MAP and Tetrahexydecyl Ascorbate. I heard that Ethyl Ascorbic Acid is great, but I have never worked with it, because it’s not sold in small quantities.
However if your goal is just to replicate the product try this:

- 0.2% of tetrasoudium EDTA (not disodium, if you want clear product)
- 1% of niacinamide
- 1% of MAP (just for claims, it won’t do anything)
- either 0.5% of carbomer (ultrez 20 or 30) or 0.3% of C10-30 Alkyl Acrylate Crosspolymer;
- 2% of propanediol or butylene glycol (you can add glycerin but not Sodium PCA or Sodium Lactate!);
- TEA qs to bring the pH to 7; 
- 0.1% of perfume
- 0.4% of poly 20 or PEG-40 HCO (poly 80 foams, just compare it with poly 20 and you will see it)
- 1% of a preservative of your choice. 

I don’t see any reason to add tocopheryl acetate. If you want to do it, just up your solubilizer.

Hi! So I tried doing this using all the dosages you gave.

Part A
Water
Carbopol Ultrez 20
Kemidant L (preservative)
Glycerin
Tetrasodium EDTA
Niacinamide

---

it was clear and viscous

Part B (i set aside water so I can dissolve MAP into it)
Water
MAP

---

it broke down and became liquid and cloudy (cos of MAP i think)

Part C
PEG-40 HCO
Perfume

---

current pH 5

Part D
TEA

---

current pH 7 but still liquid

Ive read that adding MAP at the end part is normal so now I dont know why it broke down. Your help would be greatly appreciated. 

[megcapati]

ngarayeva001 said:

If a serum with vitamin c is yellow it’s place is in the trash bin. It is a poorly formulated product with LAA where l-ascorbic acid turned to dehydroascorbic acid (prooxidant).  Raw materials  that give matt finish: silica, or some kind of dimethicone polymer. I would not add it to a serum.

Noted. I will just stop trying to get that matte finish since I also think it’s not needed.

For the vit c. I put ascorbosilane c (originally colors , and it really gives a hint of yellow for the finish product. How do I stop that?

[megcapati]

Chemist77 said:

Tocopheryl acetate is an oil soluble component, on the contrary it will suppress foam. But the use in formula is entirely up to the person who initiated this subject. Not even sure about the function of this benchmark which is being replicated. 

I’m not even sure if the benchamark contains vit c cos it doesn’t have any yellow hint it is. It looks like colorless hand sanitizer but has a matte/powdery finish when you apply.

I still haven’t found a raw mat’l that can give this a matte finish…

[megcapati]

ngarayeva001 said:

PEG-8 Dimethicone won’t give you matt look. Remove it. Also, do you really need tocopherol acetate? I have not tried it but I can predict it’s foaming. Both poly-80 and peg-8 are foaming during application. Not very desirable effect for a serum. 

It’s not foaming though. I placed it since it is an antioxidant for the ascorbosilane c. I have removed BHT already since i have tocopherol.

[megcapati]

Belassi said:

What is the BHT supposed to be protecting against oxidation?

Ascorbosilan C. My mentor said that if I removed the sodium metabisulfate, there will be no antioxidant anymore. But vit e is also an antioxidant, right? So will that be enough?