[luiscuevasii]

@Perry customers complains more often about sodium lauryl or laureth sulphate because its at the begining of the ingredients list. 
In my country its bassically a fashion trend, I dont even Know why salt-free shampoo has become so famous arround here. Nobody is concerned about dea or parabens.

I might be generalizing  but in South América a shampoo only needs to pass microbiology test to be sell, so ussing potasium chloride and claims salt-free its fine. 

[luiscuevasii]

I recently saw a shampoo that claims: sulphate free, salt free, edta free, Dea free, bht/paraben free, ecocert… Almost all the layer was filled with that.  If this keeps going on i think that we will have a Shampoo without shampoo.

By the way those trends and niches are an oportunity in my country for offering shampoo without being a competition for the big brands, basically small manufactures are the only ones that offer saltfree shampoo, and saltfree shampoo is about 50% of the market, thats a big deal.

Hi @Belassi nice to see you over here, latin-american market is full of scammers, in the case of saltfree shampoo almost all the customers belive that salt is basically sodium. 

[luiscuevasii]

talking about the big trend in my country, i have seen a some manufacturers in my country that claims “salt free” and uses Magnesium or other salts to fool users.

And our factory have recived a lot of calls asking and complaining: why our shampoo claims “salt free” and we list in our ingredients “sodium lauryl/laureth sulphate” . 

[luiscuevasii]

In the past i had layer separations issues ussing as viscosifier CMC ór xanthan gum with LABSA in a economy liquid laundry detergent, HEC would be a better option, but in my country hec is like 20 times more expensive than CMC, so we sticked with DEA/Betaine or MEA and salt.

In my country theres a trend of “no-salt shampoo” like 50% of the shampoo market is “saltfree”, almost all manufactures uses cmc as thickener and/or protamate 6000ds (peg 150 diestearate), we are ussing as preservative only 0.5%, 4ph-5ph of Sodium benzoate and we have shampoo lasting for more than 1 year.

[luiscuevasii]

@ameen Just checked my mailbox, forgive me for the delay.

@Belassi Thanks you very much for your mensage, its a pain working with resource problems, but there is always an alternative.

The soap line is almost totally installed, im currently waiting to arrive a “miller” which a bought from a bakery, and just installed today a Oven to acellerate the drying of the noodles.

Right now im having troubles with the determination of the noodle humidity needed to feed the extruder, if is too dry the soap cracks or comes out with irregular form, on the other hand if is too wet the soap clogs on the extruder (boths are a pain)

[luiscuevasii]

Greetings, thanks to all for the feedback and being so helpfull.

  Im sorry for not being active for so long, i was solving some troubles with the shampoo production line.

I have made two batches and the results were very satisfying, the process was te following:

In the main kettle Melt the oils/waxes beging the mixer, slowly add the 80% of the needed naoh (50% solution), wait to the reaction to finish, add hot brine (60-70celcius) keep mixing until the soap begings to granulate, then stop the mixing and wait to the soap and water separate, recover the glycerin/brine residue from the bottom and start the mixing again adding naoh to 100%, keep mixing and repeat the washing process to remove the unreacted naoh.

Bassicaly i can confirm that it is possible to make a semicontinous process with medium scale equipments, the process takes about 5 hours to complete.

the result was a hard and white soap witch i extruded in noodles and dryed spreading the noodles and using solar heat for about 3 days, and then extruded again into a rectangular soap.

The first batch composition was:

c16:    10%
c18:    18% 
c18:1  60%
c18:2  12%        the result was a too soft noodle that was imposible to extrude in rectangular form

Seccond bath:

c16:    29%
c18:    28%
c18:1  33%
c18:2  10%      the result was a very hard soap that makes little bubbles and were very easy to extrude

Im going to focus to optimize the foam ussing sls/sles/betaine and recovering/purifing the glycerin witch right now im storaging.

[luiscuevasii]

Thanks you very much to all for all the help given, and please forgive me for my poor english.

I found this information very usefull and wanted to share it:

Ghanna soap small scale: 
http://www.rivendellvillage.org/Small_Scale_Soapmaking.pdf

10 free pages of “soap, detergents and disinfectans technology handbook”, with Process diagram, mass balance and very well explained industrial process:

https://books.google.co.ve/books?id=PYZGAQAAQBAJ&pg=PT22&lpg=PT22&dq=brine&source=bl&ots=tK0ziuIpp3&sig=GIXHosN2jla8ezIC2zQPXN6DBdI&hl=es-419&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiEkNnev-PQAhXGOiYKHRgjB0IQ6AEIJDAC#v

[luiscuevasii]

@Belassi thanks you for your hint, its a shame that for me is almost imposible to make legal exportations due to the need of especiall permisions. “mafiocracy” as @ameen said, by the other hand that problem is also an advantage for people like me that want to make cosmetics with available raw materials, not having P&G, Uniliver and Colgate&palmolive its like heaven for any cosmetic producer and a oportunity to learn.

[luiscuevasii]

Greetings.

Im sorry for the late feedback, i was stuck solving problems with a kettle that we use to make shampoo, at this time of the year is very difficult to find welders availables.

Thanks you very very much @Bobzchemist for sharing your knowledge ans taking time to help me, i finished yesterday the mass balance and the layout and your hint of ussing the small kettle to boil the brine seems the more logic . The resource you gived was very illustrating.

Thanks for your recomendation, i agree, Im aimming to do a good quality soap, but i want to beging this project focusing in a medium scale production. 

@Ameen thanks for the videos and literature, i feelt frustrated when i read “The paste is heated at 100 °C for ten days. Heating starts up every morning and is turned off every night.”, come on thats about 14-15days per batch, thats kind of the same cure time for COLD PROCESS soap. with the only advantage of recovering glycerine.

Reading your coments about “mafiocarcy” makes me thought you were from my country, i forgot you said that you find pomace olive oil. Our reasons to make soaps are basically the same PM me if you find me usefull for anything, i couldnt make any test yet but i will do tomorrow and will post results.

[luiscuevasii]

@Bobzchemist Thanks you very much bob, your explanation was what im looking for, im aiming to do only 1 salt wash to speed up the process a little, so predicting the sap value is a must.

when you mean the “strength of your heat source” is related to the heating process ór the dry process?, i can reach 180f-200f in about 10min in each process, i have read that the saponification time for hot process is very fast, do you know how many time it would take for the reaction to finish?

Im most worried in the drying process and how to mesure the humidity of the soap (14%-16%) because it seems that an excess of humidity would be a problem in the extruder. 

I have another kettle, a small one 52gal i have to mesure the mass of the soap floating on the surface to see if it fit in the small kettle and keep ussing the biggest one in a new batch.

[luiscuevasii]

@Belassi im attempting to make a combined bar, ussing brine after saponification is “complete” does the soap go to the surface and unreacted or excess lye go to bottom as @Ameen said, so is a benefit because i dont have to test or know the exact sap index of every raw palm oil, wich i know is very unstable from my source.

-Es un alivio que hables español, mi ingles es bastante basico

@ameen i would like to use premade noodles, but as all my post on this forums my main problem is the imposibility to buy any raw material from another country, we have exchange money control, so its almost imposible to buy in any exangable money. 

So im pushed to make my own noodle from soap, “Marseille Soap” and “Aleppo Soap”  are very alike of what i intend to do, but im willing to speedup the dry time.

I will pm you for the extruder plans, if the project goes well i will need another extruder, its a luck having tons of palmoil available, no one uses it here for any industrial process .

@bobzchemist thanks for your advices.
1) I cant buy noodles from any source
2 & 3) you are right, salting is a must, im just studing how i will recover ór storage the glycerin
4) I agree continous is imposible at my stage, but i want to have a intermittent process as fast as it could be, palmoil quality is a problem that i alredy have and is quite imposible to solve, the only solution that has came is buying at least 5 tons batchs to secure the more homogeneus composition

[luiscuevasii]

Hola @Ameen y @Belassi , muchas gracias por su ayuda.

@ameen thanks for your positive feedback, my extruder its kind of the one you mentioned, same principle, but it have a conic chamber betwen de end of the screw and the noozle that makes all the heat needed in the extrusion due to compresion and a jacketed water recirculation arround all the screw. 
Basically im trying to make all the soap by my self, there is a lot of palm and coconut oil available at very cheap price in my country.

@belassi saludos, he estado bien y tu?, he leido que vives o trabajas en Mexico, hablas espa;ol?

One of the projects in my mind includes separating glycerin, mostly for having extra incomings and ussing it on my own products, but i dont have a destillator, and all i have seen available are laboratory destillators,  beside that i need a lot of storage volume considering that the kettle could make arround 5 batchs/day at least about 200-500liters of remaining lye/glicerin/salt/water solution.
If i can find a storage tank to keep the project running while a i find a destillator i will remove the glicerin, otherwhise i dont know if is costefective or advantageus trowing salt/glycerin to the sink
keeping in mind that ussing more lye than needed and removing glycerin with salt will ensure that there will not be unreacted lye or fat on the soap.  

[luiscuevasii]

Has anyone tried triclosan as anactive in a deodorant formula?, could i coupled it with ACH in order to reduce it and the water.

[luiscuevasii]

i really apreciate your help @johnb , 8% - 10% of the formula is water because im using ACH 50% solution, cant remplace that, already asked to my supplier if they could make powder ACH and they cant, in fact they where supriced when i told i was using it for cosmetic aplications.

I have tried using shellsol in a degreaser formula like 2 years ago, i remember that the smell was very strong, i will see if i can find more shellsol.  

[luiscuevasii]

@Belassi thanks fo your suggestion, i saw you put a comment few months ago about an auction, too bad for me that i havent found a courrier company that could take me rawmaterials and equipment from mexico.

[luiscuevasii]

@Bobzchemist thanksyou very much, thats exactly what im looking for, and the prices are way more cheap compared to a 200l kettle i was looking.

[luiscuevasii]

Update>
 @chemicalmatt , stearyl alcohol is working great, didnt notice any diference ussing cocamide dea, or MEA, or Soyamidemea, i will try those in a bigger batch.

@bill_toge   thanks, propyleneglycol is working great, was a huge diference compared with glycerin

@bobzchemist tried POLYMER jR 125 and 400, and got a very unexpected result, using from 0,5% to 1% the mix didnt solidified, got a very thick and sticky gel, but in the other hand the gel was very spreadable, i couldnt make batches ussing less than 0,5%, i will try 0,1% - 0,4% in a 10kg batch .

Current results (better spreadability)  Changed Mineral oil up to 12% , removed water, added PPG instead, im still waiting for 350cst dimethicone and palm kernel oil to arrive, will comment results.

[luiscuevasii]

Thanks @johnb , answering to your ingredient list>

c12-c15 alkyl benzoate   isnt available in my country
ppg 14 butyl ether             isnt available
cyclomethicone                 isnt available

Basically im ussing the remaining ingredients (stearyl, alum salt, HCO) , and as i said, my current problem as almost all the post i made are due to the non availability of most basic ingredients needed in the cosmetc industry, and the reason for that is that tehr are not cosmetic laboratories or factories in my country, 99% of the cosmetic products in my country are imported from usa/china. There is no Basf, clariant, dow chemical, lubrizol among others arround here.

I do have access to some ingredients only because the oil industry shares some raw materials with cosmetic industry. So im not willing to make a perfect deodorant, i will be happy if it barely works.

[luiscuevasii]

@Bobzchemist thanks for your tips, i will try polymer JR-400 and will post results.  Dry-flo isnt available here.

[luiscuevasii]

@johnb althought 350 dimethicone doesnt going to behave as well as cyclomethicone do you think that it could help to spreadability?, my other alternative is using 12500 cst dimethicone  wicht isnt an option.

@bill_toge  i mean that im current at 45%-55% oil in my current formula, adding aditional 5%-10% of oil could cause a desastibilization, i had problems adding too much oils s

[luiscuevasii]

@Bill_Toge thanks you very much, i will try propyleneglycol,  increasing mineral oil is a challenge because im too near to form a w/o emulsion, tomorrow i will try with 350cst dimethicone  that i found today.

[luiscuevasii]

@johnb i got your point and you are right, im not willing to make a better deodorant than speedstick or gillette, im just ttrying to make something kind of spreadable.

[luiscuevasii]

Hi @johnb , thanks for the feedback.

I have seen that almost all the stick deodorant formulations are similar, 10%-20% stearyl alcohol is always used for consistency, and cyclomethicone as primary solvent.

Btw, using the current formula im obtaining a very solid and homogeneous stick, spreading is the only problem that in need to solve without using silicones.

[luiscuevasii]

hi @johnb thanks for you reply, just to clarify,  im not intending to improve or inovate something im just trying to make a regular stick deodorant ussing the raw materials available in my country.

I would be very happy to find cyclomethicone but it seems that only 12500cps dimeticone is available here so my current goal is to make my current stick more spreadable

[luiscuevasii]

hola @chemicalmatt thanks you very much for the advises, i will try cocoamide MEA, DEA and soyamide dea and will post results, i read some days ago that you recomended DEA for boost the shine on a lipstick,  didnt know that dea could help me too.

I made batches of pure stearyl and didnt recive a noticiable diference in comparation with cetyl in spreadability/slip terms, but i have seen that almost all deodorant formulas has only stearyl, im going to stick with the tendency.

Tomorrow im planing to play with isopropyl miristate and palmitate and amides