lmosca
Forum Replies Created
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I seriously doubt this is microbial degradation. If it’s hydrochloric acid (HCl), at pH= 1-2 then there is virtually nothing that can survive that environment, aside from extremophiles living at the bottom of the ocean in a hydrothermal vent.
I think this is chemical degradation, I am not an expert of toilet cleaner formulas, but the fatty amine might, over time, de-aminate giving you a fishy smell.
Can’t really tell much more if you don’t post the formula.
Formaldehyde will be an overkill, a) it will lose efficacy in aqueous acidic conditions by polymerization, b) will eventually react with the amine subtracting it from the mixture, c) it is a known toxic (acute) and volatile carcinogen (chronic), if you are happy to work with it, be my guest.
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Anything below 200 nm will have Mie scattering in the UV and thus will be virtually transparent in the visible spectrum.
It is technically possible to achieve a transparent emulsion without using microemulsion by matching the refractive index of the two phases. This is done, usually, by increasing the refractive index of the water phase, as it is the lowest one.
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What is more concerning for me is the fact that you have product that releases gas while ‘activating’ in water (citric acid + sodium bicarb)
I do not know what is the average size of your “shampoo pellet”, but if it needs to generate enough shampoo I suppose it is not “pill sized”.How do you trust the customer not to cap the bottle tightly, come back after 10 minutes to take a shower, and have a mentos+coke geyser in their faces, or, at worst, an exploded bottle of shampoo?
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Yes. You should keep it away from oxygen.
Which is a lot harder than you think. Chemists and material scientists spend thousands and thousands of dollars to be able to keep things oxygen free.Or you could use a (more) stable ascorbic acid derivative like magnesium ascorbyl phosphate (for water phases), ethyl ascorbate or glucoside (amphiphilic), ascorbyl palmitate, tetrahexadecyl ascorbate (oil phase), but all of them come with complications (for example adjusting the pH, or working with enough oil phase to dissolve the ascorbic acid derivative).
If you want to stick with sodium ascorbate or ascorbic acid then you should use a different approach.
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Graillotion said:
Correct. It seems they have different contacts info and different offices locations. I have contacted both companies. If it’s a copycat issue, their lawyers will take care of it.
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@Graillotion @EVchem, their website seems very similar to that of a small suppliers based in Oregon, down to the thumbnails…
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Too many film formers.
You have got aloe which is full of polysaccharides, rice solution that is basically soluble starch, honey that is just sugar, goat milk hydrolysate that is aminoacids and sugar, and niacinamide that is a solid.
I am not surprised your formula is pilling. -
Solubility of 1,2-octanediol is ca. 18 g/L, phenoxyethanol is about 26 g/L, Sorbic acid is 1.5 g/L. Their concentration in Optiphen+ is 41.7%, 52.3%, and 6%, respectively.
If my math is right you should be well below the maximum solubility limits for each individual compounds.
But… organic molecules in water are weird. Solubility does not sum up. I guess what you have there is a mixture-ball of the two least soluble things, sorbic acid and 1,2-octanediol.
I suppose the water is just that and does not contain any other ingredient, right? -
All “Kojic soap” commercialized is loaded with yellow and red pigments, I am guessing to mask the color morphing due to the oxidation of kojic acid to the quinone form. Its oxidation should be even more favored at alkaline pH.
O-glicosides, like madecassoside, HEC etc… will decompose fairly quickly in alkaline pH. While stability is usually recorded between a restricted range of 2-12, at the initial stages of saponification temperatures will rise and pH will be undefinable, but high, and hydroxide activity will be very high for the first 24 hours.Pure coconut oil-based soap will be so stripping I would consider it for use as a degreaser for motor oil, unless formulated with a large excess of oil (10-15% superfat).
The thickening/gelling agents do not have any reason to exist in such soap. Why are they there in the first place?
High levels of sodium lactate can make soap brittle. It is recommended to use below 1% of sodium lactate in proportion to oils weight. More than 2-3% will cause sweating, unnecessary brittleness, and conspicuous acceleration of saponification.
Out of curiosity, I’ve had a quick search for kojic soap and all vendors recommend, in case of dry skin and tightness (that for sure you’ll have after using alkaline soap), to follow with a lotion containing kojic acid. I’ve never considered it as a marketing strategy, but that seems absolutely genius (evil, but genius).
Edit: As with anything soap, why bothering adding fancy actives?
The purpose of soap is to clean and make things smell good (and that last one is even optional). Keep kojic acid for things that actually work, too many yeasts and fungi have been inconvenienced to have it go down the drain. -
I would start by asking the percentages/amounts of your ingredients; however, I feel that a more pressing question would be: why are you trying to put kojic acid dipalmitate and madecassoside in soap?
What goal are you trying to achieve here?
In addition to that, why are you adding hydroxyethylcellulose and hydroxypropylguar?
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Na4EDTA is the culprit for the high pH. A 1% solution of it in water has a pH of 11+. Also, sodium benzoate will be completely ineffective at that pH, as it is effective (against molds and yeasts) at acidic pH values. You will need a bacteriostatic agent as well.
Multioil ACE is Soybean oil based, what are the vehicles (solvents) for your other extracts (cucumber, aloe, tomato)? If they are all oil based, then you already have an 8% lipophilic matter in your formula, plus a 4% for the essential oils.
I second @ngarayeva001, far too much essential oils, at that concentration peppermint oil will be far too irritating (especially for a facial product). -
@paoloferino the point of the aesthetic test is exactly what it says. You have been provided with a subpar product that, even if it might be safe for use (and that is not clear), is visually defective and will never sell, or not as well, even if you manage to bring it out on the shelves.
Are your product specification clearly outlined in the contractual obligations you have with the supplier?
It goes on to contractual/legal fields from here, and I am not at all prepared to have an informed opinion on this. -
Very true @Gene, those white spots can be very different things.
I suppose the soap is made cold process, by looking at the texture in the pic.
The spots you see could be as simple as tiny air bubbles incorporated during the mixing of the soap batter. Or, if the soap maker uses a mixture of high-stearic oils and fats (palm, but even more shea butter, cocoa butter, lard, and tallow) those could be “stearic spots”, which are caused by mixing a cold base with not so warm (partially melted) oils and fats. The temperature difference causes stearic and palmitic glycerides to solidify, forming specks that appear in the finished product.
In both cases the soap is perfectly fine to use, except that it might not pass the aesthetic test.A third option would be that those are “lye pockets” where the emulsification of lye water and oils was not complete and uniform, and some lye droplets either were too big or started to coalesce. The soap would be unsafe for use, in this case.
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@Doreen, I do not have betaine available at home, so I cannot try it myself, but it could have been that one as well. Quaternary ammoniums tend to do weird things in presence of a base. One of the weird things is that they can degrade to trialkylamines (fishy/ammonia smell).
If you can spare some and try it at different pHs you might see what happens, especially if you compare it with allantoin. It is true that allantoin has an amide-like group, however it is a urea group, which can hydrolyze as well, if not even faster than amides (because one of the final products is bicarbonate/CO2, and also because of the pH drift to higher values, which promotes the reaction).This is interesting. Sorry for the lotion fail
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@Doreen, in our lab we used to replace the solution whenever a refill was needed, we used lots of electrodes and at different temps and aqueous solvents so we went through a lot of filling solution (and electrodes, btw).
You will always have some ‘grime’ generated at the electrode. Some of it comes from the KCl, some might come from the DI water or mQ water used to prepare the solution (DI water and even mQ water still contain breakdown products of the resins used, they just do not conduce electricity). Over time those might adsorb at the Ag wire.
Another possibility is that since the electrode is not one of the sealed ones, evaporation and seepage through the junction changes the concentration of KCl. The usual 3M KCl is only below the saturation line at room temp. Over time you might have precipitation of KCl, which might happen at the bottom, or at the Ag wire. This creates a coating that delays the response of the electrode.
Replacing the solution brings down the concentration of KCl, so that whatever was precipitated redissolves.The cleaning question. Methanol and IPA are good to remove organics that might deposit at the electrode. Glass stored in mildly acidic environment becomes a titch more lipophilic than glass stored neutral or alkaline. Organic matter for sure will deposit by adsorption or creating a film. You won’t ruin the electrode, just do not leave them in contact for a long time. If you have a squeeze bottle it’s easier, as you can just rinse the bulb, then use DI water to re-wet the junction as quickly as possible, then place into the storage solution. We do that all the time when we work in aqueous solvents. The glass membrane might become contaminated with the most disparate stuff, proteins seem to like it a lot (in these cases you would soak the electrode in 0.5 M HCl, or digestive enzymes at pH 2-3), heavy metals can be removed with a 1M HNO3 solution. Even electrodes that are deemed bad can sometimes be reconditioned with some care.
Cheers!
L. -
@Gunther, yes in principle all the reactions that lead to/from DMDM hydantoin are reversible and under equilibrium. However, the hydrolysis of most formaldehyde releasers is slow at room temperature and at pH near-neutral. It becomes faster in strongly acidic or alkaline environment.
@Perry I’ve made this chemical drawing that you can use, if you still need.
There are two moles of formaldehyde released per 1 mole of DMDM hydantoin. The same reaction, more or less, happens for most other formaldehyde releasers, such as diazolidinyl urea and imidazolinidyl urea, or hydroxymethylglycinate.I can draw a detailed mechanism if needed to. Just let me know.
L. -
Hello All!
I’ve been passionate about cosmetic chemistry since I was a young chemistry student. I am working (as a researcher) in a midwestern university (I was born and raised in Italy) on totally unrelated stuff. It wasn’t until a couple of years ago that my partner and I started making things at home. We started our journey with soapmaking until I re-discovered the cosmetic chemistry rabbit-hole, and consequently increased expenditures for ingredients.
As of now, we do try to keep it as simple as we can and make cleansers and moisturizers, both water-based and anhydrous, for our own personal use…I am looking forward to learning a big deal from the forum (as I already have, in past lurking period).
L.