[letsalcido]

@Suzita8 did you test the pH with a test strip or a pH meter?

I tested Dr. Bronner’s (also mostly Potassium Cocoate) with a test strip and I also got readings between 5 and 6. Then I tested it with a pH meter once I got one and pH was over 8 (as expected).

Not sure about the exact science behind this huge difference, but the strips I had did mention that they work better with buffered solutions.

[letsalcido]

I would try making it myself. It does not seem like a risky product to make at home (like antibacterials that you can’t know if you have an effective formula).

I would do 0.5% EHG and 0.5% Phenoxyethanol probably. 

2-5% active Alkyl Glucoside 

2-5% D-Limonene (degreaser)

You can even improve it a bit by learning what pH is better for what kind of surfaces. Basic pH (9-10) is good for degreasing, while pH ~3 is good for removing grime (but don’t quote me on this, I think this is what I read not long ago). You can use citric acid and a solution of sodium hydroxide to adjust as required.

Also, some surfaces like natural stone may get damaged by basic pH (or was it acidic pH?). So do your research if you have natural stone counter tops or tile! 

[letsalcido]

@Cafe33 I’m only familiar with the literature and mechanism of action, but not the most effective pH or whether it can be trusted as the only preservative as well (my assumption is yes, coupled with a high pH as with some antibacterial surface cleaners pH 9-10)

NaCl won’t thicken Decyl Glucoside and CAPB, you’re missing an anionic (which we know can’t be in his formula). You can try HEC maybe paired with the carbopol aqua, or a PEG.

[letsalcido]

@Cafe33

Yes, using anionics with cationics is a no go. In this case it’s possible that it may render BAC much less effective or even ineffective as the affinity for biological membranes may be neutralized by the anionic.

Are you going to be testing your formula for efficacy?

[letsalcido]

PEG-150 distearate needs heating, the other two are liquids that you can incorporate at room temperature.

I don’t have experience with making large batches, but simple stirring would suffice.

[letsalcido]

@Zara I don’t think sorbitol would thicken it on it’s own. It’s a sugar alcohol used as a humectant.

Some thickeners you can try:
PEG-120 Methyl Glucose Dioleate (Like you mentioned)
PEG-150 distearate
PEG-150 pentaerythrityl tetrastearate
Gums (modified cellulose, xanthan)
Polymers (carbopol/acrylates)

[letsalcido]

I’ve heard people say that you cannot add more than 10% liquids to an emulsion after it’s cooled down and emulsified.

How sensitive are the ingredients you’re adding? And what are they exactly? are they electrolyte rich? Why not add them in the cool down phase at or below 40C? A full formulation would be ideal to get good feedback.

Usually you will want a gum or polymer in your dispersed phase which will help stabilize your emulsion, basically by slowing down coalescence. 0.1-0.5% Xanthan Gum of your total formulation would be enough. I do 0.3% for a lotion with 70% water.

[letsalcido]

@natiyo123 I’m also newish to formulating, and have slowly come to learn that w/o are a pain in the butt.

If you’re not married to the idea of making the deodorant as a W/O or O/W emulsion (not sure how o/w would work as a bar…) you can go the anhydrous way.

I make my own deodorant with Propylene Glycol and 3-5% Sodium Stearate. This will create a clear bar, and you can use that as a vehicle for your actives and build upon it. You can use lauryl glucoside to incorporate some oil into the bar as well, if you’d like a more emollient feel. It would also probably be cheaper than using waxes and oils. This is a super common formula/base for deo sticks.

You should also be able to use water and PG for the same bar formulation, but I haven’t experimented to see what the ratio should be so it is stable and doesn’t “sweat”. PG is cheap so I’m not worried about using that only.

Otherwise, like Perry mentioned, it would be best if you can share your full formula.

[letsalcido]

I’m not a seasoned formulator. But I think (and have seen) that shampoos that claim to give volume contain mostly stronger surfactants that will strip more oils and residue from the hair, they also avoid conditioners. At most they use Polyquaternium-7 or 10 and PEG-7 Glyceryl Cocoate or a similar refattener. Forget silicone/dimethicone, oils, or waxes that are highly conditioning and create build up.

I’ve also seen glycerin in there. Not sure why it is, but it does make the hair a bit more voluminous, with the downside that it has a terrible sensorial effect (no slip, squeaky hair). Ever tried to wash your hair with a true soap bar? (Old fashioned oils and lye soap) It will have so much volume after, but it will feel horrible. I think it’s the glycerine plus the harshness of the soap.

[letsalcido]

@rseguin what is your complete formula? It seems that you may be missing a strong enough surfactant to keep the cetyl alcohol solubilized. Cetyl alcohol itself is not a surfactant/emulsifier, and Tween-20 (Polysorbate 20) alone may not be enough or you may need much more than there is cetyl alcohol.

[letsalcido]

@Zara CAPB only thickens anionic surfactants. If you don’t have one in your formula, it will not get thick! The anionic(s) would normally be your primary surfactant(s). It is also possible to add too much CAPB or salt and lose all viscosity. You can google it, it’s called the surfactant salt curve, and you can experiment to find the optimal amount of salt of CAPB to achieve the maximum thickness in your formula.

[letsalcido]

@RobThrowaway I don’t believe it is responsible for anyone here to give medical advice. Most people are not licensed physicians, and there is some liability. Also, this is a cosmetic-oriented forum, what you need is something therapeutic and would be classified as a drug.

That being said, if you are seeing issues due to chaffing/friction, try different underwear. Maybe boxer briefs that will remain in place on your skin and not rub against it. Probably cotton would be best to prevent moisture build up, fungi thrive in warm moist environments.

Petrolatum (vaseline) is something people would also use to protect skin. But I’m not sure if this would be counterproductive with fungal growth being present! So, consult with a physician or try at your own risk.

Essential oils are irritating, so you need to find the concentration that is effective for the claimed purpose that also doesn’t cause damage on your skin. Since these are not FDA approved, you will find different sources recommending different concentrations. EO are use-at-your-own-risk.

Also, there is some concern that Tea Trea is a source of phytoestrogens, which can cause issues if used long term in males. But it does show good antifungal properties. 

[letsalcido]

@Zara potassium oleate is perfectly safe for skin, it’s made with Potash and Olive Oil. Basically, it’s a fancy name for liquid castile soap. It is an anionic surfactant, and a true soap (fatty acid alkaline metal salt)

But you could add other possibly cheaper ones like sodium laureth sulfate (SLES) or alpha olephin sulfonate (AOS 40 if you need an even milder one. The cocamidopropyl betaine in your formula will immediately thicken these anionic surfactants.

[letsalcido]

@EVchem @chemicalmatt thank you both!

@chemicalmatt I read that the registration is not necessary if the active ingredients are some essential oils regarded as safe. So this clarifies the issue. 

Thank you!

[letsalcido]

Labeling should be done based on the final concentration of ingredients. So, before figuring out the label you have to figure out the concentration of each of the INCIs you’re listing.

It’s very simple. Multiply the concentration of the given INCI in the stock mixture, by the final concentration of that mixture in the formula:

Optiphen plus at 1.5% means you have:
phenoxyethanol .5225 * 0.015 = 0.00784 or .78% final concentration.

[letsalcido]

@EVchem thank you, I hadn’t come across the second link (must have missed it). Super helpful.

So this wouldn’t be regarded as a drug by the FDA, right? Meaning, it wouldn’t need to be made in an FDA approved facility?

[letsalcido]

@czkld I don’t, that’s a place you need to order from at your own risk. 

[letsalcido]

@Michaelv03 the reasons these sort of diets and claims engage me so strongly are:

1) as a biochemist generalizing a huge number of molecules that to the untrained eye are “the same”, and then blaming a single enzyme for processing them is unthinkable. Enzymes are most often highly specific, and a single atom on a given molecule is frequently enough for an enzyme to not bind to it.

2) the diets that are suggested are often more detrimental than the symptoms that people are suffering from, and can lead to a slippery slope of health problems.

I’m glad you’ve found a way to manage your symptoms though, each person is different in many ways for sure. 

[letsalcido]

I agree with @Anuli, hyperpigmentation is a real problem. 

It will probably just be a marketing change. There won’t be any more “whitening” products. But rather products marketed to treat hyperpigmentation, and sun damage. Would that make them OTC?

[letsalcido]

@Michaelv03 there is plenty of research supporting what pharma says. Even in autistic patients: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31085194/

Fortunately, there are now new supplements available which break down polyphenols in the stomach

Sometimes we need to evaluate the motivation behind “scientific” claims. Some people use their “credentials” to build a brand, a persona. They also create a need where there isn’t one, and profit. 

A condition as serious as what you mention would not be treated with supplements. For the most part, those are unregulated and do little to nothing.

Thanks for taking the time to share your opinions and the reason why you’d like to avoid phenolics in oils.

[letsalcido]

Use heat, and don’t stir too much to avoid excessive foaming.

[letsalcido]

@Amira I’m not a seasoned cosmetic chemist to be able to say with certainty that your formula at pH 5 would be effective or not. It also varies from person to person, diet, skin microbiome… maybe just try it. I just know that an alkaline pH will help get rid of odor causing bacteria. 

I think tea tree and rosemary should be effective in there too.

[letsalcido]

@Pharma I looked it up. It came up in websites discussing things like the GFCF (Gluten Free, Casein Free) diet and the like and how removing phenols from your foods was the next step if you had *insert long list of conditions here* (eczema, autism, etc.)

Sample: http://www.allnaturaladvantage.com.au/home/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/Phenol-Sensitivity.pdf

Apparently amines are bad for you too, based on that document… ???? is this the start of an amino acid free diet?

[letsalcido]

There is less water than glyceryl stearate and lanolin, if in the right order. This is definitely w/o in that case.

Maybe someone experienced will be able to tell for sure.

If you have a sample of this product, does it “dissolve” in water or just floats?

[letsalcido]

@Choycer strictly speaking, like Belassi said, surfactants are not fatty acids. They’ve gone through chemical reactions that change their identity and behavior completely! Cleansers (if formulated well) will rinse off completely for the most part, they are also denaturing to biological membranes (bacteria and virus) and proteins (virus) to a certain extent, some are even used as disinfectants, like in the case of Quaternary Ammonium Compounds, most of which would contain at least some of the carbon chains you’re trying to avoid.

Again, surfactants are NOT fatty acids. A covalently bound molecule is NOT the same as a mixture of molecules. I can mix ammonium sulfate and lauric acid and it will not be the same as Ammonium Lauryl Sulfate (ALS). One is a mixture of compounds, the other is a completely new compound.

I think you should listen to Bill and Belassi, and revaluate what you are considering here. 

As a side note: if you are going by what companies and DIYers say (olive oil soap is moisturizing because of the linoleic acid/Omegas, etc. just don’t do it. It’s all unscientific nonsense. Once reacted, the oils used for making a soap or detergent are no longer oils and their original benefits are for the most part gone).