letsalcido
Forum Replies Created
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@Perry thank you for sharing that
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@ozgirl good catch, I missed the benzalkonium chloride in there.
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@chemicalmatt can you expand more on why is MEA the bad actor?
And in such case, while Cocamide DEA is not unsafe, what are the things to consider when using it because of the residual free ethanolamines?
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@Yulin the yellow comes from the SAP not the Jojoba Oil.
And the milky white comes from the dispersed oil droplets with diferente refraction index than water. If you want a clear serum you’ll need a high amount of solubilizer (or some types of lecithins that yield clear micro/nano emulsions) and high shear to create a nano emulsion.
With your current formulation using clear jojoba won’t change anything.
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@tamicet glyceryl caprylate/caprate is easy to find and has similar function as the MG-60 you mention here.
It helps (supposedly, I haven’t tried it myself) with thickening, foam stability and refattening in surfactants.
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@tamicet what do you mean naturally derived? That MG-60 sounds pretty naturally derived to me. Seems like there is a chain of maltose and glucose and broken down starch. All “natural” in my book.
If you give people here a clearer definition of what you will consider natural or naturally derived you’ll get better answers. Maybe you mean something with a simpler or less scientific sounding name?
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I think that may be microbial growth. You’re lacking a strong preservative. Sodium triophosphate (from doing a quick search) seems to be a food preservative for things that are normally kept refrigerated (meat, poultry, fish).
You’ll want to add some phenoxyethanol (or another preservative to have full protection), potassium sorbate to complement your sodium benzoate and a chelator (EDTA). However, alkaline (to my understanding) is better for grease removal power. So that renders sodium benzoate and potassium sorbate useless as your preservatives, which need a pH of 3-4 to be active.
You could probably just use Phenonip for this. And still add the chelator.
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That’s a very small amount of oil, that’s probably why the carbomer alone was keeping it “emulsified”.
A quick search shows jojoba has a required HLB of 10-11 https://www.researchgate.net/publication/262960061_Development_of_Jojoba_Oil_Simmondsia_chinensis_Link_CK_Schneid_Based_Nanoemulsions
Ask your manufacturer to see what emulsifiers they have that can be added now (probably liquid ones) and have an HLB of around 10. You’ll likely need make some sample micro batches.
Alternatively, I bought a serum once that had a similar composition as yours (plus essential oils) and it was also separated. For the regular eye it didn’t look like that, but I intentionally poured it in a clear bowl to analyze it and it was in fact separated. My point is, the average person won’t notice the separation with such tiny amounts of oil unless you have recurring customers that are used to seeing the opaque version.
Just double checking, it turns from cloudy white to translucent yellow right?
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@Yulin can you share your full formula? That way other people can also jump in. Depending on how large your oil phase is some emulsifiers will be better than others.
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I don’t know if that would work. I know polysorbate 20 is a solubilizer for fragrances and essential oils (light oils) mostly. You could test it with a sample.
Maybe someone else will know if this works.
@Yulin Do you not have any other emulsifiers you can use?
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@bsingle for what I’ve seen, leave on conditioners are the same as rinse off, just made much lighter with significantly lower concentration of conditioning agents.
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A couple things.
All detergents (including soaps) can be irritating. A good formula will use a combination of surfactants that work in synergy and is found to be mild. When combined, some combinations of detergents are much less irritating than they are on their own. Usually, a mix of anionic (like the sodium ones you mention), amphoteric (like alkylamine oxides, or alkyl amido propyl betaines) and anionics (like alkyl polyglucosides).Sodium detergents are not replacing sulfates. Some sulfates (SLS, SLES) are also sodium salts. I would not think of “sodium based” surfactants as a a category. Those are actually classified as “anionic”, which tend to have strong detergency to remove soil/dirt. Some of the best and most popular OTC shampoos for seborrheic dermatitis are very simple and use sulfates (again SLS, SLES). Like Neutrogena’s T/Sal or T/Gel. I suffer from seborreic dermatitis and the last thing I want is to use is any nourishing, conditioning shampoos. Two hours after showering and my head and hair are greasy and gross.It can even exacerbate it and make me break out in pimples. I know it’s not the SLS/SLES doing that because T/Sal, T/Gel work wonders. I recently formulated my own shampoo with SLS/SLES/Salicylic acid, polyquaternium 10 and a refattener and it’s been lovely, my hair has a nice slip and little to no frizz (which I used to have a problem with).
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@Yulin what you’re observing is the emulsion separating.
SAP is naturally yellow like MAP (magnesium version). Both are stable versions of vitamin C, so I would not be as concerned about oxidation.
The cloudy white you see is the dispersed jojoba oil as small droplets in the water. Carbopol 940 is be able to stabilize/emulsify a small amount of oils for longer than Xanthan without an emulsifier. Once the oil separates, you get the yellow water phase, and a top oil phase (which may be the same color causing you to not notice it).
If you’re switching to Xanthan you’ll want an emulsifier or solubilizer (Polysorbate 80 could do), or remove the jojoba oil.
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@EVchem preservative in spanish is “conservador”, preservativo is a condom.
@Econatural realizaron pruebas de estabilidad y de desafío en este producto? Y cuanto tiempo hubo entre los dos conteos microbiológicos? // Did you do stability and challenge testing on this product? How long passed between both microbial enumeration tests were performed? -
@Dimati yes, you can find good information online and on youtube.
But yes, it is possible to enhance certain notes with others. For example, base notes are exactly used in that way, to “carry” or enhance certain lighter top notes.
This is a field of study on its own, so you’ll have to do your own research because I am no expert and a thread on a forum could not be enough to explain it all anyways. You should try things out on your own to experience them yourself, just reading about it won’t do much good either.
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If you see the word “fragrance” in the ingredient list, it’s possible that it not only contains essential oils. It may also contain natural isolated compounds and synthetics.
Linalool, Citronellol and limonene (among others) are known allergens and regulated in Europe. Therefore, they must be listed if present (even if it’s coming from another ingredient in the list: essential oil or fragrance). It does not necessarily mean they added them as isolated compounds.
You can create an essential oil mix and use that as your fragrance, and you’ll have two options to list it. You can list the individual oils/extracts by their INCI, or you can “hide them” and list them as just fragrance. I suggest doing more research on this. The FDA has some regulations of what can be listed as fragrance and what can’t.
There’s a good channel for learning the basics on youtube called “Perfumer’s World” that you can checkout. -
The shelf life or individual ingredients is different than that of a final formulation. Dry tapioca starch and arrow root powder will last a long time (year or two, maybe even longer) as long as they’re kept in a cold and dry place.
Aloe vera comes in many forms. Is it the leaves, aloe vera juice or powder? If you bought cosmetic grade aloe vera juice, it must come with an expiration date. It may also come preserved.
Your gel is a soup for microbes, the shelf-life after all is mixed is at the very maximum 2 days if not refrigerated or a preservative is not used, ideally use within 24hrs. I may be safe if used within a week if kept refrigerated. And still, use at your own risk. Microbes will grow from the very moment you start mixing a batch.
You should always use a preservative when making cosmetics that have water or may even potentially make its way into them. -
@PuffyTiger a proper scientific comparison would require that both solutions be at the same pH at least. And testing the purified acids (acetic acid and citric acid) to rule out other compounds helping (or deterring) removal of build up.
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@PuffyTiger oversimplified: when you mix a fatty acid (or oil) with a base (alkaline compound) you create soap. The stronger the base the higher the percentage of the oil that will turn to soap.
These baking soda washes are probably banking on some of the oils turning to soap, which is water soluble and can then drag more oil and dirt with it.Hard water contains calcium and other minerals. When soap is mixed with those minerals, it reacts and turns less water soluble (which is the scum that builds on the floor of the shower, glassware, windows… when we use soaps in hard water). So this scum sticks to your hair and is not as easily rinsable, again, because it’s not soluble in water.Most shower cleaners/scum removers are acidic. They react with it and make it easier to dissolve in water/remove. This is probably what the vinegar is doing in your hair, helping remove those compounds.
These are all educated guesses. But if someone has actual data to confirm or disprove this it would be very welcome.
In terms of whether it’s “good” for the hair, I have no idea. Someone might want to jump in and help out. My guess is that this is actually harsher than using commercial products. You’re banking on chemical reactions occurring on your hair and you’re submitting it to possibly large pH drifts, which can destabilize the proteins in it.
It’s best to have a professional (dermatologist) diagnose your ailments and perform patch testing of common sensitizers found in cosmetics. It is likely that you are sensitive to just a couple or a few, and with knowing exactly which ones you will be able to purchase high-performing commercial products that you can tolerate. -
@missionbarns there is a market for Coconut and Palm free cosmetics. While the animal fat itself may be of little use as a raw material for cosmetics, if you have developed a truly sustainable and cost-effective way of producing the most widely used fatty acids (stearic, palmitic, lauric, myristic…) that are usually extracted from coconut or palm, there is a potential market in the raw material production as another source of more renewable hydrocarbons. Take for example biotechnologically produced squalane (neossance).
@Pharma I’m sure you’re aware of the impact of agriculture on deforestation, soil quality, etc… and of course the inevitable variability in yield due to weather, pests, etc. Even if certain trees are replaced with a different kind (oil palms), there is a negative impact. I think if they have found a commercially and environmentally viable way of producing animal meat and fats industrially (as a by product), this is promising. With algae, a quick read showed the fatty acid composition is highly variable and won’t produce as much saturated fatty acids of the kind used in cosmetics as animal cells would (without genetic modification of course).
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@mrlv90 I think Perry made some good points that could be red flags for some people (those knowing if the brand is to be trusted and follows regulations).
The reason I asked what kind of red flags is exactly because that question is broad and can be approached in my possible ways. From incompatible or unsafe ingredients, to lies in the list (like listing Hyaluronic Acid as the only ingredient in a liquid product…).
With any natural products (and even synthetics) there is a risk of an allergic reaction on some users. Essential oils and natural extracts are usually less regulated than synthetics, and many can cause reactions on people.
Some people may think that citrus oils are photo-toxic, but the reality is that many steam distilled aren’t. Some do contain furocoumarins which are the photo-toxic compounds (like bergaptene), like bergamot (steam distilled) and lime (cold pressed). But you can also find oils that have those compounds removed (bergaptene-free bergamot oil is not hard to find).The biggest red flag I can think of is that there are too many active ingredients, and I’m not sure that they can make the formula cost effective if the ingredients are used at the concentrations required to show an effect.
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@mrlv90 what kind of “red flags” are you looking for?
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@HAL49 @Cafe33 I’m by no means an expert about this topic. I’ve just been doing reading about this because I wanted to make some antibacterial cleaners for my own use, and just putting to use some of that degree that is just hanging on a wall otherwise…
Again, going off of this source https://www.drugbank.ca/drugs/DB11105 pH does not seem to have an effect on activity.My take on all this is that as long as it is dissolved and there is no anionic surfactants in the formulation it should be active. Being most effective in leave on products (no-rinse hand sanitizers, surface cleaners, etc). Lab testing will be the only certain way to determine if the formulation is effective.And I agree “contact time” would be “tiempo de contacto”
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@Cafe33 just an educated guess, but the enhanced antimicrobial activity from cationic surfactants (over anionics) is their affinity for certain membrane negatively charged compounds. BAC also has a bulky benzene ring that may be playing a role in membrane destabilization.
Because the mechanism of action agains microbes is by denaturing their membranes (physical) and relies on charge, I would believe that the BAC needs to be dissociated to have any effect (or to at least cling to the skin). I was reading somewhere that testing did not show a significant improvement cfu between washing hands with just soap/detergent vs one with BAC immediately after. However, BAC did show a cumulative, longer lasting effect as it stays on the skin. I should probably find that source so you can take a look. But what I’m gathering from this is that if dissociated, it will more effectively stick to the skin due to static charges.
https://www.drugbank.ca/drugs/DB11105 I also found this source, in the pharmacodynamics section it does mention that pH does not seem to affect effectiveness, but contact time does.
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@LuisJavier I made one with PG (~90%) and Glycerin (4%) and it was too sticky. I hated it.
Propylene glycol is a humectant itself, I don’t know that glycerin will provide any benefits that PG alone won’t.
The bar was also way too hard. I used 5% sodium stearate, lowered it to 3% later and now it’s good but I did remove Glycerin at the same time, so not sure if glycerine had a role in the hardness of the bar.