ketchito
Forum Replies Created
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@Cosmetic_Chemist Did you try with Crothix Liquid? It’s very useful for hard to thicken formulas, and at not so high dose.
I don’t think adding more Betaine would help since it doesn’t necessary have the same viscosity building response with all anionics.
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@Paprik Perhaps you could try adding (sprinkling with high agitation) the HEC to the water before the surfactants? In that way, you’ll give it time to hydrate…also, adding a tiny amount of base to the HEC solution can help speed up the hydration process.
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@Stivtoo After the 30 min of mixing, do you reduce (or remove) the mixer speed during the cool down phase? This helps release air and enables formation of micellar structure.
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@GeorgeBenson You could try adding an hydrotrope (eg. SXS), or adding a co-surfactant (like CAPB).
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@Stivtoo Is vessel/beaker the same in both cases (this can impact on required energy and cooling time)? and your cooling time (if this changes, emulsion structure could be different)? Also, for how long you homogenize your product to make the emulsion (temperature should be mantained through the emulsion process).
Also, some products benefit from an extra mixing before reaching 50°C.
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@Abdullah It happens when you apply the shampoo to hair following by water. By the time you are rinsing, dilution is way too high (but it doesn’t matter, becaue whatever had to deposit already did).
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@Camel If you’ll use this product in children 2y+, I’d advise you to follow something similar as what J&J does for their baby/kids products. They constantly conduct efficacy and safety tests, so that would be a good formulation model (especially if “no tears” is something desirable, where the use of PEG-80 sorbitan laurate, sulfosuccinates and sultaines can be beneficial).
Proteins can actually help in reducing irritation from anionic surfactants by forming complexes with them; the challenge being the microbiological issue with proteins, so it’s worthy to try them only if you can spend some money on microbiological testing.
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@filiz Is Amodimethicone (and) C11-15 Pareth-7 (and) Trideceth-3 the ingredient named Microsil? If that’s the case, it’s a microemulsion so it should give a clear product.
What do you use to thicken the product? Is that the full formula (maybe you’re also adding some fragrance? Also, in some systems, increasing or decreasing pH can improve clarity. What’s the pH of your system?
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@Abdullah The vertical axis as @chemicalmatt mentioned, should be Transmittance. In the horizontal axis, the numbers indicate the parts of water per 1 part of your base shampoo (that’s the dilution factor).
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It can also be mentioned that both PQ-74 and Cationic guar deposit higher amounts of polymer than PQ-10 (although, the initial transmitance for Cationic guar was 80, so it was a bit more turbid from the start than the other two).
Both curves (from PQ-10 and Cationic guar are broader) than the one from PQ-74, which might mean that they have a range of flocculation rather than a sharp peak.
Also, in this system, PQ-7 doesn’t seem to form coacervates (which is actually no surprising).
Now, it should be understood that the behavior from those graphics depends on the system tested (I’d expect something different if we increase for instance, the amount of Betaine relative to the amount of SLES, or if the secondary surfactant is substituted by a different one).
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@Cosmetic_Chemist Mixing non ionics (like glucosides) with CAPB doesn’t show the synergy you get when you mix an anionic surfactant with CAPB (especially SLES or SLS). Also, if your liquid soap has some cationic polymer, combining a glucoside with CAPB might not favor coacervation.
Now, when comparing Decyl glucoside with Coco glucoside, Decyl tends to be more degreasing, which could leave a squeaky feel on the skin.
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I agree with @Microformulation. Regarding surfactants, highly ethoxylated (like PEG-80 sorbitan laurate) are prefered, even more if they are non ionic.
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@Mayday Since sodium chloride is an organic salt, when in contact with water, its ionic structure is lost and you’ll vahe only ions (solvated) wandering aroung the solution…it’s like when you make an instant noodle soup: you first have the tightly bound chunk of noodles, but when you add them to water, they disperse.
Humectants work in a different way: they have a consistent structure (made of covalent ions, which keep atoms together in solution), and they bind water through specific groups (in the case of polyols like glucose or glycerin, though hydroxyl groups, and in the case of PCA, through its carboxylic groups)…they are like a mop, sucking water from a wet surface, and loosing it when in contact with a dry surface.
Now, just a word about gycerol: it’s more than what it is (or what it seems to be, hehe).
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@GeorgeBenson Those polymers are better added to the water phase, at the start of the process, and with good mixing to avoid clumps and speed hydration.
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@Abdullah You don’t need to go too high in temperature. I usually make large batches following Clariant’s recommendations for working with their Behentrimonium chloride (heating both of the two phases at 75-80°C).
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@Chemist_Ahmed I believe someone was just doodling with Chemdraw (or some similar software). There are few errors though: sulfur in the upper part is missplaced, and there’s an additional oxygen attached to the lower sulfur (sulfur can take up to 12 electrons, not 14).
Besides that, I hardly see any real use for that molecule as a surfactant (the extra alkyl chain and extra sulfonate would make packing harder).
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@AMS You need to sprinkle Jaguar into the vortex, and mix at high speed till the polymer is fully incorprated; you could alternatively add some base -like sodium hydroxide- to speed up hydration (also, check that no acidic material has been added before guar gum).
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JohnS said:ketchito said:@JohnS Rather than the evaporation, I’d worry more on the fact that being a small silicone, it can be rinse out very easily, without having time to perform. Use a larger molecule, like a dimethicone (or even a PEG-12 dimethicone, if there’s a big impact on foam).
Thanks for the reply.
I should’ve told the whole story - a formula I follow suggests using Dimethicone at 2% and cyclomethicone at 2%. The volatility of cyclo made me question including it at all; the rationale being that I end up with just the Dimethicone in the final product.
On a side note; the 2-5 minutes a conditioner is on the hair isn’t enough for cyclomethicone to work?
@JohnS For some reason I thought it was a cleansing bar, my apologies. If you are formulating a conditioning bar, as @Perry mentioned, the effect of cyclomethicone will be perceived basically during the aplication process (wet stage). When the hair is dry, you’d feel more the effect of dimethicone. I’d try one formula with and another without cyclomethicone, both to see if the effect is perceived, and to adjust the dose.
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@JohnS Rather than the evaporation, I’d worry more on the fact that being a small silicone, it can be rinse out very easily, without having time to perform. Use a larger molecule, like a dimethicone (or even a PEG-12 dimethicone, if there’s a big impact on foam).
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@JohnS Using BTMS as source of Behentrimonium is more expensive than using it alone (usually, it comes as a 80% active). You can also add the fatty alcohol separately. In that case, you can add higher amounts of Behentrimonium without increasing price dramatically.
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@Cosmetic_Chemist Can you try one sample without salts? Some emulsions don’t tolerate high amounts of electrolytes.
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@GeorgeBenson Chances are that the last two surfactants are just part of some blend.
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Abdullah said:ketchito said:@Abdullah The active part of Zn-PCA is PCA. PCA itself (as most organic acids) is not as soluble in water as it’s salt; that’s why it’s more common to have it as Na-PCA. As @MarkBroussard mentioned, once dissolved in water, salts such as Na-PCA, Zn-PCA or ZnSO4 will completely dissociate in their ions (depending on their solubility constants), since hydration is more thermodinamically favored than keeping the ionic structure, so then you’ll have each single ion in the solution. Again, what matters is to have the PCA part present, since that’s the one with humecting properties.
@Rimshah most extracts have very little antioxidant capacity (with few exceptions)…keep in mind that they have usually metal (ions) traces, which act as catalyst of oxidative properties, so you’d need a more robust antioxidant to protect them.
I thought the active part of zinc PCA is zinc.
https://www.sephora.com/product/the-ordinary-deciem-niacinamide-10-zinc-1-P427417
@Abdullah My bet. I for some reason thought someone mentioned the humectancy, that’s when PCA comes to play. If you want a Zn source for your formula due to its antimicrobial properties (not aware of sebum regulation, but for that, aluminium salts are more effective), then cheaper sources are well…cheaper (except ZnO which is a very stable ionic compound).
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@Abdullah The active part of Zn-PCA is PCA. PCA itself (as most organic acids) is not as soluble in water as it’s salt; that’s why it’s more common to have it as Na-PCA. As @MarkBroussard mentioned, once dissolved in water, salts such as Na-PCA, Zn-PCA or ZnSO4 will completely dissociate in their ions (depending on their solubility constants), since hydration is more thermodinamically favored than keeping the ionic structure, so then you’ll have each single ion in the solution. Again, what matters is to have the PCA part present, since that’s the one with humecting properties.
@Rimshah most extracts have very little antioxidant capacity (with few exceptions)…keep in mind that they have usually metal (ions) traces, which act as catalyst of oxidative properties, so you’d need a more robust antioxidant to protect them.
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@1Armand2 Adding some simple silicone (like Dimethicone) would help on that.