ketchito
Forum Replies Created
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Your concern is fair. Now, to my mind come some alternatives:
- silicones microemulsions
- hydrophobically modified PQ-10 (I’ve seen this material from Dow)
- Polyester-37 (Clarisilk), although this one can reduce viscosity
- Sokalan HP20, which can boost detergency and provide some conditioning due to its cationic nature…but can also decrease viscosity
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Having more emulsifier than needed is why the whole cosmetic emulsions are all about (you just need to make the calculations). Now, that’s actually good since the excess emulsifier makes the emulsion interface thicker and more stable. So, the high viscosity and better stability is actually due to the excess emulsifier (plus structuring agents, of course). What would be more interesting to know is how much is too much emulsifier. What’s your ratio of emulsifier to structuring agents (like fatty alcohols, glyceryl stearate, etc.)?
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Why do you compare different amounts of each ingredient (I assume is active máster, right?). While they both serie more or less a similar purpose, because of the difference in alkyl cain lenght, there might be some differences like CTA being better at controlling frizz while BTC might be better for dry softness, but being a little heavy on hair if you use too much.
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What’s your pH? Sometimes when amphoterics are present, pH can impact foaming properties of the whole formula. Also, I’d add cationic polymers from the start, after water and before the surfactants so they can hydrate and uncoil properly.
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I believe you are mixing some things. Silicones have been used in suspension for decades now. If you pick up for instance an UL shampoo, you’ll see that they have silicone oils along with a carbomer as a suspending agent. That technology is old and very common. What’s unique to P&G’s shampoos is the use of a LGN to both conditiong and stabilize silicone oils (that’s why you don’t find a polymeric suspending agent in their shampoos). To be fair, L’oreal had tried to mimic this approach, but for what I remember from its patent, I believe they couldn’t replicate the same manufacturing process (P&G use a very specific colloid mill to make the LGN while L’oreal mix the ingredients altogether without the premix).
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Yes, and that’s the same recommendation (I believe from Colipa) to neutralize secundary amines and prevent nitrosamine formation. Now, I’d be more worried about the very dark color for other reasons as well. Did you run a microbial test?
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These phenomenon is tipically called blooming. You can find few threads on the topic in the forum. This usually happens due to different polarities of what you want to mix.
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Generally speaking, a longer chain alkyl group gives more lubricity (for instance, behentrimonium vs cetrimonium). Also, the methosulfate counterion gives a thicker gel phase than chloride (which gives more viscosity as you experienced, but also better TEWL control and conditioning in general). A shorter chain length gives more motility (cetrimonium vs behentrimonium) and that’s why CTAC is the best when it comes to static reduction. And finally, a dialkyl chain gives also more lubricity than a monoalkyl chain. Short answer, it’s complicated….hehehe. In reality, different surface activity is one of the reasons you normally see a mixture of different cationic surfactants in conditioning emulsions.
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Just out of curiosity, what are you using that ingredient? It has some properties, but if you mention which one you’re using it for, it’d be easier to propose a replacement. Also, if you choose to use non-ethoxylated products because of personal believes (like the presence of 1,4-dioxane which is a very small and volatile molecule which is now present only in traces same as other by-products), or if it’s a requirement from a client of yours.
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If you emulsify at 80°C, then after that and till around 55-60°C, you should remove high shear. In fact, you wouldn’t need high shear after the emulsion. Sometimes (like in UL’s patent), it helps to use some high shear for a couple of minutes but that’s about it.
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@evchem2 That can actually happen. That’s why it’s recommended to add both polymers appart from each other during the process, and having always surfactants being added in between. UL use this strategy often. Now, there’s another very interesting way and that’s adding a specific ratio of cationic/anionic polymer directly at the start which, instead of forming a precipitate, they form a gel phase called polyectrolyte complex which has interesting conditioning and rheological properties. Tresemme advertises this tech as way to mend split-ends.
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At the emulsion temperature, you ensure there are enough colisions and energy…it’s like you have all the instructions then to organize themselves. Some organization occurs here, but since there’s quite some free energy, there’s also some exchange of molecules. It’s during cool down where the main arrangement happens. That’s why shear here is not advisable (would you shake the table while playing jenga?). I always take between the end of the emulsion process and around 55-60°C as the time where “the baby” learns how to walk. From then on, some high mixing could happen (like in UL’s patent), but shortly, and not so low in T so the emulsion has time to recover in case there’s some disturbance.
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That patent is a good reference.
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What they are doing is adding cooling water at 40°C, and pushing it through the interfase of your emulsion to swell your LGN, which already got thick. I’d have added it at higher T (around 65-60°C), but some formulas get a boost of viscosity and homogenity by mixing at high speed for a few minutes around 40°C.
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4% is too much salt for my taste, but if it works for you, then just put a sample in the fridge to see if there’s no precipitation over time.
I’d add Guar HPTC at the very start (before surfactants), so it has time and room to expand and hydrate. A bit of an acid helps to speed up the process.
Carbopol here is your best friend if you want to suspend a silicone oil (it can also thicken your product, depending on the amount). If you use an ethoxylated silicone, then you don’t need it.
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Carbopol is indeed the thickener, and as I mentioned, since sodium benzoate is a basic salt (by basic I mean its the product of the neutralization of a strong base and a weak acid), it will raise water pH and partially neutralize Carbopol, increasing viscosity.
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I’d add it in the phase B, since you need to give your emulsion time to build some identity, so, when disturbed, it can use its “memory” to recover its structure. Usually, cooling down water is pushed inside the lamellar structure which swells, but if your structure is not formed yet, then that water will remain as free water or maybe even hydrating some free fatty alcohols (which might explain the high viscosity you see when adding at high T, but the stability and final texture might suffer).
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Since the formula is sensitive to electrolytes, adding it at higher between 55-50°C would give some room for recovery, keeping in mind that the high temperature would allow structures to rearrange better than when it’s cooler and stiffer.
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Yes you can. Try to check the SDS of the original material, so you know more or less which ratio of fatty alcohols/emulifier you need to add.
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Those vales are as they are (I’ve seen the formula, but I cannot give more details or else they would take away my house and savings, hehe). Now, keep in mind those are broad ranges to keep the formula secret, but you can have a closer look through the patent.
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If you remove Glycerin or use it at not more than 0.1%, you might get a better viscosity response when using salt or any other thickener. Now, since you’re using dinethicone, then a suspending agent is needed. I’d use Carbopol 980 instead of the 940, to avoid benzene traces.
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AEO-9 is a good “degreaser”, so if you want to use it in a cosmetic cleanser, don’t use it as the main surfactant (maybe use it in the range between 0.5-2%).
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Try adding the Euxyl K712 between 55 and 50°C (not lower that that), and add it with veeeery slow mixing, like a kid that doesn’t want to it his/her soup. Viscosity will drop, but it’ll also recover during cooling. The drop in viscosity just means your system is impacted by electrolytes.
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I’ve seen this happening few times when mixing a gum (your guarcat) and a glucoside. Two things might be going on: 1) glucoside units from your surfactant could be interacting with the ones in cationic guar (forming hydrogen bonds could reduce solubility), 2) anionic groups in your sulfonate can interact well with positive sites in your guarcat (it boosts micelles formation, which are good solubilizers), which doesn’t happen when a non ionic surfactant is present, 3) a coacervate might be forming which can be a consequence of 1, and the glucoside is not able to disolver it. All of these are uneducated guesses, hehe, but as I mentioned, I’ve seen this movie before.
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I did that once, and the product was thicker but rough. Also, not mixing makes the cooling process longer.