ketchito
Forum Replies Created
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At the emulsion temperature, you ensure there are enough colisions and energy…it’s like you have all the instructions then to organize themselves. Some organization occurs here, but since there’s quite some free energy, there’s also some exchange of molecules. It’s during cool down where the main arrangement happens. That’s why shear here is not advisable (would you shake the table while playing jenga?). I always take between the end of the emulsion process and around 55-60°C as the time where “the baby” learns how to walk. From then on, some high mixing could happen (like in UL’s patent), but shortly, and not so low in T so the emulsion has time to recover in case there’s some disturbance.
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That patent is a good reference.
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What they are doing is adding cooling water at 40°C, and pushing it through the interfase of your emulsion to swell your LGN, which already got thick. I’d have added it at higher T (around 65-60°C), but some formulas get a boost of viscosity and homogenity by mixing at high speed for a few minutes around 40°C.
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4% is too much salt for my taste, but if it works for you, then just put a sample in the fridge to see if there’s no precipitation over time.
I’d add Guar HPTC at the very start (before surfactants), so it has time and room to expand and hydrate. A bit of an acid helps to speed up the process.
Carbopol here is your best friend if you want to suspend a silicone oil (it can also thicken your product, depending on the amount). If you use an ethoxylated silicone, then you don’t need it.
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Carbopol is indeed the thickener, and as I mentioned, since sodium benzoate is a basic salt (by basic I mean its the product of the neutralization of a strong base and a weak acid), it will raise water pH and partially neutralize Carbopol, increasing viscosity.
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I’d add it in the phase B, since you need to give your emulsion time to build some identity, so, when disturbed, it can use its “memory” to recover its structure. Usually, cooling down water is pushed inside the lamellar structure which swells, but if your structure is not formed yet, then that water will remain as free water or maybe even hydrating some free fatty alcohols (which might explain the high viscosity you see when adding at high T, but the stability and final texture might suffer).
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Since the formula is sensitive to electrolytes, adding it at higher between 55-50°C would give some room for recovery, keeping in mind that the high temperature would allow structures to rearrange better than when it’s cooler and stiffer.
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Yes you can. Try to check the SDS of the original material, so you know more or less which ratio of fatty alcohols/emulifier you need to add.
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Those vales are as they are (I’ve seen the formula, but I cannot give more details or else they would take away my house and savings, hehe). Now, keep in mind those are broad ranges to keep the formula secret, but you can have a closer look through the patent.
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If you remove Glycerin or use it at not more than 0.1%, you might get a better viscosity response when using salt or any other thickener. Now, since you’re using dinethicone, then a suspending agent is needed. I’d use Carbopol 980 instead of the 940, to avoid benzene traces.
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AEO-9 is a good “degreaser”, so if you want to use it in a cosmetic cleanser, don’t use it as the main surfactant (maybe use it in the range between 0.5-2%).
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Try adding the Euxyl K712 between 55 and 50°C (not lower that that), and add it with veeeery slow mixing, like a kid that doesn’t want to it his/her soup. Viscosity will drop, but it’ll also recover during cooling. The drop in viscosity just means your system is impacted by electrolytes.
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I’ve seen this happening few times when mixing a gum (your guarcat) and a glucoside. Two things might be going on: 1) glucoside units from your surfactant could be interacting with the ones in cationic guar (forming hydrogen bonds could reduce solubility), 2) anionic groups in your sulfonate can interact well with positive sites in your guarcat (it boosts micelles formation, which are good solubilizers), which doesn’t happen when a non ionic surfactant is present, 3) a coacervate might be forming which can be a consequence of 1, and the glucoside is not able to disolver it. All of these are uneducated guesses, hehe, but as I mentioned, I’ve seen this movie before.
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For what I read and for what you’ve experienced, yes, it needs to be neutralized. Now, since sodium benzoate is a basic salt, it will act as neutralizer of your carbopol, so it’s best not to add sodium benzoate at the start, but after the surfactants.
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Can you compare both the pH and free base (maybe sodium hydroxide) of both surfactants?
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Could you make the second one withput the Citric acid (don’t mind about the pH)? I believe alfer sulfation, some amount of base is added to neutralize the free sulfuric acid remaining. There might be more of this in the powder than in the liquid, hence you need to add more acid to lower the pH.
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Both PEG-7 glyceryl cocoate and PEG-6 CCT are emollients, not detergents. That type of detergent reminds me the same principle of co-washes, which is wrong from the cleaning perspective. I think you could benefit more from using a mild anionic surfactant combined with an amphoteric, to reduce micelle charge density and free anionic molecules.
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I personally don’t used Croda formulations, not even as a starting point since you’ll be bound to their ingredients, many of which you won’t find anywhere else.
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Happy new year as well to this amazing group 🤓
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The emulsifier in your silicone microemulsion might be causing a rearrangement of your micellar system. You can use a rheology modifier to counteract this effect.
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Do you have pictures? Since water is usually more dense than your oil phase, when separation occurs, water tends to go to the bottom, and over time, you’ll see how how it grows more and more. If what you see on top is a clear layer, then those are your nonpolar oils. It’s best if you pictures of what you’re seeing.
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The main advise is not to mix directly both cationic guar and the anionic surfactant, to prevent forming a coacervate in the mixture rather than during rinsing.
But for me, the main issue with adding it after surfactants is that they prevent the polymer to uncoil and properly hydrate (a portion of an acid is always added to the polymer solution, to speed hydration). This is needed for better interaction of binding sites with surfactants and fully display of viscosity. It’s like trying to make a carpet fit on the floor when all your guests are already in the room…and drunk…and dancing.
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I’ve seen a similar gel phase forming with different type of anionic-cationic surfactant systems. Can you try a sample without CAPB, adjust the pH and add the CAPB at last and little by little (add 1% for instance, mix and see what happens; if the solution is still clear, add another 1%).
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I’d say LABSA since it has more charge density and less water solubility.
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I mention that’s the quick way for not having that at all. With waxy structuring agents you’ll always have some transient white residue, although at different levels. You can actually use both rheology modifiers (not only gums) and fatty alcohols at the same time. I’d advise you to find one commercial product that you like, and search for its patent.