ketchito
Forum Replies Created
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That formula I know almost by heart (why didn’t you ever want to hire me, P&G? hehehe). From the patents I’ve seen, they use Stearyl at 0.64% and Cetyl at 0.36%. Percentages could vary a bit, but in any case, I’d bet Stearyl is lower than 1%. For the SXS, keep in mind you have quite some electrolytes in that formula (your Na citrate-citric acid buffer, added NaCl, surfactant’s NaCl, Na benzoate, Na4 EDTA, etc.), so you need to prevent precipitation/solubility issues, and that’s where SXS comes in handy. They use a lot of it in their dishwashers as well.
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Are those ingredients the only ones in your formula? Where they completely dissolved at the start? What’s the pH of your solution?
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Bubbles happen probably due to CO2 production. You won’t have the same issue with HCl. Just keep in mind that neutralization is very exothermic, so better use very diluted solutions.
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Get rid of Aloe Vera. Improve your preservative system. If photostability is a concern, replace Vit E acetate (it needs to be converted by your body into an active form, so it won’t protect your product) by a excited state quencher, your UVB protection is too low (if you add octocrylene, you’ll tackle that and protector Avobebzone from catalyic effects of uncoated TiO2). Also, use dispersión of both TiO2 and ZnO for better dispersion (better if you mix different particle sizes), and replace natural oils by esters which will provide better dispersion of inorganic filters andsprradability of the product on the skin.
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In their intensive itch they have their usual LGN (which also helps deposit silicones), but not in the second one. Now, dimethicone on its own can deposit to reduce free energy (although, not as much as with a deposition aid), at least the part that is not solubilized by the surfactant.
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That blue-ish hue is typical of microemulsions. There’s are different ways to produce a microemulsion, and the easiest is to use high levels of very specific surfactants, like Ecosurf SA-9.
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Threre’s something off there. If you check for instance the ingredients list for the twin bottles of itch relief, it’s different to the same list that is in Smart label. I’d check directly at the physical label.
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Not necessarily that it will reduce foam, but that it won’t foam as much as it should at some pH. You could do some Ross-Miles test of your formula at different pH to see the effect.
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Your assistant needs more training, hehe. I recommend you to check first how big brands formulate (check at their labels and patents), and then use databases like UL prospector where you might find formulas to help you know the adequate doses for each ingredient.
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In Glyceryl Stearate (and) PEG-100 Stearate, glyceryl stearate is a structuring agent and PEG-100 stearate is the emulsifier. Can you mention how much of emulsifier you are using or cosider as being too much? Keep in mind that when applied on the skin, it’s not the emulsifier alone that deposits but as being part of a structure.
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I still believe CAPB rules! Let me elaborate. The synergy you see when mixing amphoterics like CAPB with anionics such as SLES is mostly due to the quaternary amine present in CAPB (besides the hydrogen bonds from the amide group, of course), which is missing in CAM MEA. While CAM MEA could potentially have a positive charge in some conditions, that species is not very stable and it’ll prefer to have a neutral configuration. Because of that, CAPB is my dog (sorry about the slang!).
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Your concern is fair. Now, to my mind come some alternatives:
- silicones microemulsions
- hydrophobically modified PQ-10 (I’ve seen this material from Dow)
- Polyester-37 (Clarisilk), although this one can reduce viscosity
- Sokalan HP20, which can boost detergency and provide some conditioning due to its cationic nature…but can also decrease viscosity
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Having more emulsifier than needed is why the whole cosmetic emulsions are all about (you just need to make the calculations). Now, that’s actually good since the excess emulsifier makes the emulsion interface thicker and more stable. So, the high viscosity and better stability is actually due to the excess emulsifier (plus structuring agents, of course). What would be more interesting to know is how much is too much emulsifier. What’s your ratio of emulsifier to structuring agents (like fatty alcohols, glyceryl stearate, etc.)?
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Why do you compare different amounts of each ingredient (I assume is active máster, right?). While they both serie more or less a similar purpose, because of the difference in alkyl cain lenght, there might be some differences like CTA being better at controlling frizz while BTC might be better for dry softness, but being a little heavy on hair if you use too much.
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What’s your pH? Sometimes when amphoterics are present, pH can impact foaming properties of the whole formula. Also, I’d add cationic polymers from the start, after water and before the surfactants so they can hydrate and uncoil properly.
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I believe you are mixing some things. Silicones have been used in suspension for decades now. If you pick up for instance an UL shampoo, you’ll see that they have silicone oils along with a carbomer as a suspending agent. That technology is old and very common. What’s unique to P&G’s shampoos is the use of a LGN to both conditiong and stabilize silicone oils (that’s why you don’t find a polymeric suspending agent in their shampoos). To be fair, L’oreal had tried to mimic this approach, but for what I remember from its patent, I believe they couldn’t replicate the same manufacturing process (P&G use a very specific colloid mill to make the LGN while L’oreal mix the ingredients altogether without the premix).
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Yes, and that’s the same recommendation (I believe from Colipa) to neutralize secundary amines and prevent nitrosamine formation. Now, I’d be more worried about the very dark color for other reasons as well. Did you run a microbial test?
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These phenomenon is tipically called blooming. You can find few threads on the topic in the forum. This usually happens due to different polarities of what you want to mix.
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Generally speaking, a longer chain alkyl group gives more lubricity (for instance, behentrimonium vs cetrimonium). Also, the methosulfate counterion gives a thicker gel phase than chloride (which gives more viscosity as you experienced, but also better TEWL control and conditioning in general). A shorter chain length gives more motility (cetrimonium vs behentrimonium) and that’s why CTAC is the best when it comes to static reduction. And finally, a dialkyl chain gives also more lubricity than a monoalkyl chain. Short answer, it’s complicated….hehehe. In reality, different surface activity is one of the reasons you normally see a mixture of different cationic surfactants in conditioning emulsions.
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Just out of curiosity, what are you using that ingredient? It has some properties, but if you mention which one you’re using it for, it’d be easier to propose a replacement. Also, if you choose to use non-ethoxylated products because of personal believes (like the presence of 1,4-dioxane which is a very small and volatile molecule which is now present only in traces same as other by-products), or if it’s a requirement from a client of yours.
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If you emulsify at 80°C, then after that and till around 55-60°C, you should remove high shear. In fact, you wouldn’t need high shear after the emulsion. Sometimes (like in UL’s patent), it helps to use some high shear for a couple of minutes but that’s about it.
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@evchem2 That can actually happen. That’s why it’s recommended to add both polymers appart from each other during the process, and having always surfactants being added in between. UL use this strategy often. Now, there’s another very interesting way and that’s adding a specific ratio of cationic/anionic polymer directly at the start which, instead of forming a precipitate, they form a gel phase called polyectrolyte complex which has interesting conditioning and rheological properties. Tresemme advertises this tech as way to mend split-ends.
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I remember making a microemulsion with Ecosurf SA-9 years ago, it was for a laundry detergent, but it might as well work for a cosmetic. I remember I used between 10-15% of the material for a similar amount of oil (I recommend working in percentages). I’d suggest starting with 5% and make some small additions till you see a blue-ish color and total clarity of your solution.
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If it’s a cosmetic product, I’d stay around a pH of 5. Heating would improve water quality (at high temperature), but some impurities are heat resistant. Adding an acid might neutralize the basic ones, but not all of the impurities are basic. Now, chances are you won’t have impurities in your product that could compromise health at the usual levels, but adding a chelant to prevent catalytic activity of some metal ions could be a good practice (which I’m sure you do).
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I did that once, and the product was thicker but rough. Also, not mixing makes the cooling process longer.