[JohnS]

ProfessorHerb said:

You don’t need to be lost in the formulation advice. Its much better to have a cake type shampoo bar where you mold it like play dough than a formula where you are using BTMS for conditioning and hardening. BTMS doesn’t do anything for a shampoo for any type of hair. Its a useless ingredient in shampoo, even in conditioning shampoo. There are humectants and hydrating ingredients you can use instead. Also, when using gentle surfactants, it will clean hair without stripping it. But I’m not sure what end product you are aiming for. The best thing to do is to use a min of 2 powder surfactants but ideal to use at least one more type solid or liquid which is looks like you are. Make a product that uses the maximum of each at its safest level and put it in a silicone mold. If it sticks to your hand you need less liquid. If it cracks you have too much powder.

When doing the first experiement you can make a 10 gram bar and use it to wash hands or face. My bar is so gentle it can be used on skin. This is easier than taking a shower with each batch since you already have experience in formulating it and trying it. This first batch can be very simple, just your surfactants and 1-2 actives and 1-2 humectants and or colorant etc. You can work on making it pretty later.

You can also make a wet formula so you don’t have to mold like play dough and sort of pour it instead. Its prettier too if you find a nice mold. You might need sodium lactate to help harden the bar and it’ll also serve as one humectant. And then you will need to cure the bar for 2-3 days. I don’t know if the recipe translated but it looks like you have up to 15% glycerine? I would recommend vegetable glycerine at well under 10%, although in shampoo at even 20% in a liquid shampoo is pure luxury. You can’t necessarily have too much since its water soluable and leaves a silky finish on hair.

What do you want your shampoo bar to look and feel like and for what type of hair?

What access do you have to ingredients because i can send you a formula that works.

Also are you looking for “natural”?

Will it be for men or women?

For dry or normal hair?

What scent are you trying to achieve?

Is the water being used for the marshmallow? Otherwise you may be able to replace the water and have your liquid surfactant and or actives serve as the liquid component.

What are you using the marshmallow for? Because of the marshmallow and BTMS I presume you are looking for something conditioning or softening. I also used to use marshmallow for my shampoo bar, its a great ingredient for everything. The downfall is the water needed for the marshmallow. You could potentially blend a marshmallow powder into the liquid surfactant. It’ll look like an herby bar with the marshmallow powder.

Hello @ProfessorHerb

If you could, I would very much appreciate further details on BTMS being useless in shampoo products.

Is it unable to perform its function of being substantive to hair due to the chemical nature of the other ingredients?

[JohnS]

Noone :smiley: ?

[JohnS]

chemicalmatt said:

Perry is on the mark - again - in his summation. Behenyl quat chloride (BTMC) is less expensive than the methosulfate by many $$$, and it is the alkyl quaternary that does the heavy lifting, not the anion. BTMC is the better, cheaper emulsifier too, especially when you use the 85% wax (dissolved into the water at 85 - 90C.) As for efficacy, the behenyl quats lend a softness to hair and skin substantially better than the lower homologs STEARAC, CETAC. Summing up: friends, don’t let friends use BTMS-25 or 50 when BTMC 85% can be had. 

Thanks for the additional info, Matt. Through anecdotal evidence/perception I can confirm that the behenyls outperform the others.

By “the 85% wax” you meant for example - Incroquat Behenyl TMC-85, INCI: Behentrimonium Chloride (and) Isopropyl Alcohol - or something else?

[JohnS]

Every reply makes a lot of sense.

Absolutely no point for companies to use BTMS, when they know how to formulate without it for cheaper.

And absolutely no reason for repackers and small companies/hobbyists to use anything other than BTMS, when they wouldn’t make any money and wouldn’t even know how to formulate without it.

[JohnS]

@Perry Thanks for the insight of the purpose of the ingredient, I incorrectly assumed a bit different. And great info about the volatility - up until now I thought, as some sources told me (without evidence), that it evaporates faster than ethanol. In which case you can see why I thought it would be pointless in a bar.  :#

@ketchito Apologies for the confusion, the title can indeed suggest that, my bad. I shall indeed do some perception testing.

@Cafe33 Many thanks for this comment.

This was my other, perhaps ‘more important’ question, for which I was going to create another discussion/topic. You’ve struck it head on. I’ll post it here, but if anyone thinks its a good idea to create a separate discussion I can do it:

Formulas from swift crafty monkey suggest 2% cyclomethicone and 2% dimethicone for both LIQUID and SOLID conditioners. (my only source of learning so far)

The problem is:

1. with LIQUID, a person may use about 10 - 15grams of product (at 4% this means 0.6g total silicones applied). Probably enough for achieving the desired effects, yes?

2. With SOLID, the amount of product used is about 1 to 1.5grams. At 4%, that would mean 0.06grams total silicones applied. Probably no effect at that level. Or am I mistaken?

To achieve the LIQUID level of application/deposition with the solid, the SOLID formula would need to be 20% cyclo and 20% dime.   

Long story short: What is the minimum % of cyclo and dime respectively, that is usually used to achieve an effect? 0.5%? 1%? 0.2%? Is a co-ingredient required at that level (I’ve read that polyquat 10 and cationic guar aid with deposition)?

Is it feasible to achieve the percentages from the above question, for any real effect in solid bar formulas? Without destabilizing or otherwise making them a bad product?

Many thanks,

[JohnS]

ketchito said:

@JohnS Rather than the evaporation, I’d worry more on the fact that being a small silicone, it can be rinse out very easily, without having time to perform. Use a larger molecule, like a dimethicone (or even a PEG-12 dimethicone, if there’s a big impact on foam).

Thanks for the reply.

I should’ve told the whole story - a formula I follow suggests using Dimethicone at 2% and cyclomethicone at 2%. The volatility of cyclo made me question including it at all; the rationale being that I end up with just the Dimethicone in the final product.

On a side note; the 2-5 minutes a conditioner is on the hair isn’t enough for cyclomethicone to work?