indo_skinimalist
Forum Replies Created
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Hi, thanks for the suggestion. I’ve tried another version with xanthan gum and found it too snotty for my liking. I cannot get Sepimax Zen and Aristoflex where I live.
I did try another version with more cetyl alcohol but this felt a bit heavy personally for the face.
Can I please get some guidance on how to hydrate the HEC for this formulation so I can try out this formula with that and see if it serves my purpose?
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Also, will GMS produce the same viscosity in this emulsion or could it perhaps help to thin it?
I also have Montanov 68 and BTMS 50 on hand btw, but from whatever formulations I’ve made with these so far, I highly doubt they’ll create a thin emulsion.
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Currently my ph is about 4.3. I have made a revised formulation now to bump it up to at least a 5-5.2. Viscosity - well, I want it to be easily pumped out of a lotion pump bottle and right now it’s just about happening with 1-2 pump options that are big enough to handle this.
Thank you for the suggestion, but Polyglyceryl-4-laurate also seems to not be available in my country 🙁
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Thought I’ll leave my formulation in here as well. I have tried reducing the amount of Olivem 1000 to thin out the emulsion, but that leads to failed emulsions after a few days/weeks.
59.87% Distilled Water (up to a 100%)
0.20% Xanthan gum
3.00% Glycerin
12.00% Shea Butter
10.00% Fractionated Coconut Oil
2.00% Olive Squalane
3.00% Sweet Almond Oil
7.00% Olivem 1000
1.00% Vit E
1.00% Geogard ECT
0.93% Assorted Essential Oils
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I did doubt this too. I make 100g batches for trial. But I ensure the homogenizer is completely submerged and take a beaker that is tall and narrow so the head of the homogenizer doesn’t ever peep out. I use the Misceo 250P.
How would you hydrate HEC personally to use in creams? Is the percentage I’m using too high? I’ve seen lotion formulas (mind you, lotion not cream!) posted by some containing 2% HEC 😮 So I didn’t think 0.7% would be a big deal in my formula! And that lotion did not have any bubbles at all! Why on earth does mine have so many?! If I try not homogenizing only occasionally, and otherwise using a spatula to stir, I get a thin lotion consistency which is definitely not I want. But even then there’re a LOT of bubbles in it, unlike my usual lotions without HEC!
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So are you saying it is not because of the HEC? I’m not sure I understand how changing the emulsifier might help? Could you please explain?
Also, I wanted to keep the formula “natural” for some personal reasons and do not want to use dimethicones.. Any alternatives that you think might do the same thing? I’ve tried using Isoamyl Laurate earlier in one of the versions at various percentages, and the cream felt too slick and slippy, which is not the feel I was going for. I suspect dimethicone or an equivalent might do the same?
And what is your suggestion for working with the HEC - how do I hydrate and incorporate it???
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I doubt it’s the thickness trapping the bubbles. I tried another version where I’d reduced it to 0.6% (had reduced the main oils also a little bit). That formula didn’t thicken as much and was a lotion consistency but still was full of bubbles. I tried hitting it repeatedly to try and remove the trapped air but no luck. It’s a bubbly lotion. I really don’t know how to work with HEC!!!
Would it work to hydrate the HEC in water and letting it sit overnight to get a clear gel and then adding it to thicken a lotion and get it to a creamy consistency without the bubbles???
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I’m not able to find the Soft grade so easily here with suppliers. They have only two kinds as far as I’ve seen - labelled “Xanthan Gum” or “Xanthan Gum Transparent”.
Any idea why I’m having the bubbly texture in my formulation? I thought it might be because the HEC was not hydrated correctly.
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Hi Abdullah,
update - tried what you suggested - reduced olivem 1000 by 1% and added 1% Caprylyl/capryl glucoside. It seemed like great consistency, just what i wanted. Emulsion separated 24 hours later.. 🙁 Back to square 1.
I have made one more version with 3% Montanov 68 and added in 1% cetyl alcohol (and reduced the shea butter by 1%). The mixture is slightly less viscous than my original one. Not sure if its good enough for lotion pumps, but Im also worried about stability. - Do you think this is enough emulsifier for a 27% oil phase?
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I’m sorry, I’ve never used a surfactant in a lotion before, so could you please let me know how to go about incorporating this? Should I first heat the water and then add the Caprylyl/Capryl Glucoside to this hot water? Or can I add it to the water and heat everything together?
And also, do you advise I keep the olivem 1000 in the oil phase? Or do you recommend I add it to the water phase before heating the water?
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“The initial homogenizing should be continued with a low shear mixing until cool down.” - By this, do you mean that I should do a low shear homogenizing until the mixture reaches 40 deg C or even lower?
Also, if I let it cool down naturally, how often do you recommend I homogenize? Is it time-wise or temperature-wise? (As in, homogenize when the temperature drops by 3-4 degrees each time, perhaps?)
I work in a space that doesn’t have air conditioning and the indoor temps reach 34-35 deg C easily. So it can take a very long time to achieve even a few degrees of cooling.
Also, when I use Olivem 1000 in the water phase, do I just add the olivem directly to the water phase and heat together?
Thanks for your inputs! 🙂
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Do you mean the MT-50 version of Vitamin E? If so, I do not have access to that. Will try the Rosemary Oleoresin Extract then. Thank you! 🙂
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Understood! Wouldn’t mind some theory at this point honestly 😉 I can try it out practically and see how it goes!
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I haven’t tried putting Olivem 1000 in the water phase, but I HAVE read many on this forum talk about that. Will definitely try that out. But like I said, reducing oil phase to 10% is not an option for me coz I live in a very dry region and my earlier versions of lotions with lesser oil were highly ineffective. I also tried replacing the shea butter partly with oils instead to reduce the viscosity, but this didn’t seem to make much difference. I’m wondering if maybe I homogenize too much or too often and this is somehow contributing to the thickness?
My procedure is to heat oil and water phases to about 75 deg C each and then mix first with a spatula, then homogenize at a low speed, slowly increasing the speed, for 3 minutes. Then I pop the mixture into the refrigerator for 10 minutes at a time (I live in a hot area and waiting for the mixture to cool by itself or to put it in an ice bath takes way too long) and then homogenize again for 3 minutes, and repeat this process until the mixture cools down enough for me to add the preservatives and essential oils. So overall, I probably homogenize it maybe 5 times in total, for 3 minutes each time.
Is there some other way I can do this that might result in a lower viscosity lotion?
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Thank you so much, abdullah, for offering to help! Very kind of you 🙂
I currently have Olivem 1000, BTMS 50 and Montanov 68, other than stock of Olivem 900 for w/o.
In surfactants, I have Coco, Decyl and Caprylyl/Capryl Glucosides, and Coco Betaine.
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Should I start with 3% Glyceryl Oleate and maybe replace 2% oils with 2% cetyl alcohol, to start off? Or is that too low for my 27% oil phase?
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Will try that out, yes. Since I had prior experience with all the 3 emulsifiers I currently have, I was fairly certain I won’t be able to get a thin enough emulsion. Let me try only Glyceryl Oleate, and if that doesn’t work, then maybe Glyceryl Oleate + another emulsifier I already have.
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I cannot find Sodium Stearoyl Glutamate in my country either! Any other suggestions?
I had no idea about the Tocopheryl Acetate. Thanks so much, that was an eye-opener. Reading up about it now. Will reduce that.
About Glyceryl Oleate - any starting point for me on how much to try using? Do I need a co-emulsifier with it and if yes, what and how much do you suggest? I can’t seem to find much reading material on usage rates and ratio to oil phase etc.
Thank you! 🙂
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I have read so much about how pH of 5.5 is good for lotions etc. I didn’t know 4.3 is actually better! Are you saying I don’t need to raise it at all?
And I cannot use petrolatum unfortunately, due to some core issues surrounding “natural” formulations 🙁
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Thank you for taking the time to give me your inputs! Yes, I am definitely a beginner and am still finding my way around formulating. Please pardon my ignorance and help me understand some things.
I haven’t been successful in getting my hands on Sucrose Stearate so far in my country in any case, so I suppose I can’t talk about that much, but what co-emulsifier would you recommend with it?
GSC - Glyceryl Stearate Citrate - Again, can’t find it in my country 🙁
SSG - Sodium Starch Glycolate - Might be able to get this. Can see a few possible sources. Never heard about it though. Can you point me towards any info on how to formulate with it?
Glyceryl Oleate - This I can definitely get. Again, no idea how to formulate with this. I will look for more info, but would really appreciate any videos or reading material about formulating with it!
You are right, I’m missing a chelator and I have been trying to find a “natural” chelator that would work for me. Have zeroed in on Sodium Gluconate for now and my next version has that included at a 0.2%. Do you think that should do the trick? Can’t find GLDA in my country 🙁
I do have Cetyl Alcohol also ready to be included in my next version. Waiting to see what emulsifier I am going with to see what percentage I need to include of that. Also, I was concerned that it might thicken my lotion more than what it already is.
My formula is already acidic at a ph of 4.3 currently, which I’m trying to bump up to 5.3 at least with a very basic sodium bicarb. So I definitely don’t need an acid.
Again, very difficult to get my hands on cosmos-certified preservatives here in my country and Geogard ECT has been the easiest to get my hands on. Can you give me other suggestions that I can look for?
I had initially started formulating the lotion at a 15% oil phase, then a 20% oil phase and then finally had to keep bumping it up to the current 27% to make it moisturizing enough. Even at 15% I had a very very weak lotion that literally evaporated in a matter of hours and left my skin super dry. Like I said, relative humidity’s downright awful around here.
I had no idea Vitamin E could impact a formulation negatively! Can you please enlighten me on this?
Again, thanks for all the inputs! 🙂
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There is definitely soaping, but I don’t really mind it. The thickness is way too much though. It can’t make it out of regular lotion pump bottles and needs a special thick tube for the lotion to be able to go through!