[Gunther]

Several conditioning shampoos, all around the world seem to use Cetrimonium chloride with laureth-sulfates, seemingly without problems.
While I repeat the experiment in a different addition order,
I’ll list some of them

I know this is a pet shampoo. It’s weird it doesn’t contain any CAPB along CTAC
Water, Sodium Laureth Sulfate, Sodium C14 – 16 Olefin Sulfonate, Sodium Chloride, Cocamide Diethanolamine, Cetrimonium Chloride, Yucca Schidigera Extract, Fragrance, Dye.
http://quadrupedpetcare.com/wp/ingredients

Satinique® Extra Volume Shampoo

Ingredients: Water/Eau, Sodium Laureth Sulfate, Cocamidopropyl Betaine, Sodium Chloride, Glycereth-26, Fragrance/Parfum, C12-15 Alkyl Lactate, Hydroxypropyl Methylcellulose, PEG-60 Hydrogenated Castor Oil, Polyurethane-14, Cetrimonium Chloride, Guar Hydroxypropyltrimonium Chloride, Tetrasodium EDTA, AMP-Acrylates Copolymer, Citric Acid, Creatine, Macadamia Ternifolia Seed Oil, Dipropylene Glycol, C10-40 Isoalkylamidopropylethyldimonium Ethosulfate, Aloe Barbadensis Leaf Juice, PPG-12-Buteth-16, Triethanolamine, Dicalcium Phosphate Dihydrate, Sodium PCA, Sodium Lactate, Arginine, Limnanthes Alba (Meadowfoam) Seed Oil, Aspartic Acid, PCA, Hydrolyzed Soy Protein, Glycine, Alanine, Methylchloroisothiazolinone, Ceramide 2, Serine, Ceramide 3, Valine, Behenic Acid, Cholesterol, Isoleucine, Proline, Threonine, Methylisothiazolinone, Biotin, Histidine, Phenylalanine, Perilla Ocymoides Leaf Extract.
http://www.amway.ca/Shop/Product/ProductDetailPrintPreview.aspx?itemno=3698&in=1&mi=1&ri=1&rnr=1&apf=1&aprc=1&ihc=0&ici=1&pt=1&ci=1

Product INCI Supplier % Di Water     25.55 Celquat® SC-240 (Polyquaternium-10)   1 0.30 Ammonium lauryl sulfate (28%)     30.00 Ammonium laureth-2 sulfate (26%)     30.00 Dimethicone 60000 cS     0.80 Dimethicone 350 cS     1.20 ArlasilkTM Phospholipid PLN   2 4.00 Estol® 3750   3 2.00 Cetearyl Alcohol     1.00 Monamid® CMA   4 3.00 ArlasilkTM Phospholipid® SV   5 1.20 Cetrimonium chloride     0.75 Fragrance     0.20

Preparation:
Procedure 
To water slowly add the Celquat SC-240 with high speed agitation 
while heating to 70°C. 
When the Celquat SC-240 is dissolved, 
add the ammonium 
lauryl sulfate and ammonium laureth sulfate 
with moderate agitation. 
Add dimethicone fluids to ArlasilkTM 
Phospholipid PLN, 
then add to batch. 
When temperature reaches 70°C add Estol 3750, 
cetearyl alcohol and Monamid CMA. 
Add the ArlasilkTM Phospholipid SV and stir. 
Begin cooling to 50°C then add the cetrimonium chloride. 
Begin cooling to 45°C, then add colour, fragrance, 
and preservative as required.

https://www.personalcaremagazine.com/formulation-details/419/2-in-1-shampoo?companyid=1287

Ingredient List

Water, Sodium Cocoyl Isethionate, Sodium Lauryl Sulfate, Sodium Laureth Sulfate, Cocamidopropyl Betaine, Sodium Chloride, Lauryl Glucoside, Stearyl Citrate, Disodium Laureth Sulfosuccinate, Polyquaternium-10, Guar Hydroxypropyltrimonium Chloride, Amodimethicone, Cetrimonium Chloride, Fragrance, Trideceth-12, Tetrasodium EDTA, Phenoxyethanol, Caprylyl Glycol, Ethylhexylglycerin, Hexylene Glycol, Sodium Hydroxide

http://phique.com/product/phique-moisturizing-shampoo/

Water, Sodium Laureth Sulfate, Dimethiconol, Cocamidopropyl Betaine, Perfume, Sodium Chloride, Carbomer, TEA-Dodecylbenzenesulfonate, Amodimethicone, Guar Hydroxypropyltrimonium Chloride, Citric Acid, Disodium EDTA, Mica, Sodium Benzoate, Cyclotetrasiloxane, Trideceth-10, DMDM Hydantoin, Phenoxyethanol, Titanium Dioxide, Trideceth-12, Cetrimonium Chloride, Cyclopentasiloxane, Magnesium Nitrate, Mineral Oil, Hydrolyzed Silk, Dimethyl Palmitamine, Methylchloroisothiazolinone, Magnesium Chloride, Methylisothiazolinone, Iodopropynyl Butylcarbamate, Benzoic Acid, Acetic Acid, Sodium Sulfate, CI 17200

https://www.sunsilk.com.ph/hair-products/shampoo/perfect-straight-shampoo.html

[Gunther]

This is like the umpteenth post on eyeshadows
You should have figured by now that they ain’t easy at all.

You’d be better off starting with a premade base
Just check out this one out to see how many ingredients it has:
Ingredients: lauryl laurate, caprylic/capric triglyceride, polyhydroxystearic acid, isododecane, trimethylsiloxysilicate resin, candelilla wax, octyldodecanol, titanium dioxide, talc, sunflower wax, silica, dimethicone, tocopherol.
https://www.makingcosmetics.com/Signature-Natural-Eye-Shadow-Base_p_1249.html

Sourcing, purchasing and blending all these ingredients in the proper order, with the proper methods is going to become too much of a chore, unless you plan to sell hundreds (if not thousands) pounds of eyeshadow.
Not meant to discourage you, just pointing out the truth.

There are also cream/liquid eyeshadows, reportedly easier to make.

As a nice market niche you can make (liquid) custom-colored cosmetics for airbrush use.
Especially interesting if you also sell, service and repair the airbrushes.
Just an idea.

[Gunther]

This study shows that just 0.1% ethyl alcohol can delay some bacteria from growing
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1449072/

Alcohol doesn’t kill all bacteria by itself in liquid form
it’s the evaporation of alcohol that degrades bacteria.
http://www.scielo.br/pdf/rlae/v21n2/0104-1169-rlae-21-02-0618.pdf

And even that doesn’t fully kill all bacteria
not for nothing they use steam autoclaves to sterilize pharma and surgical equipment, because alcohol evaporation ain’t clean enough.

[Gunther]

Besides the unpleasant powdery sensation
it means the actives ain’t getting absorbed.

You’d better Google a study about succesful Niacinamide skin absorption, and replicate the formula they used, as closely as posible.

[Gunther]

Update:
CAPB gave pretty similar effects to Coco-Betaine: a thick slime

I took out most other ingredients as to see what’s causing the problem
Ingredients are listed in order of addition. All ingredients were properly dissolved before adding the next one.

1.    45% water
2.    5% Polyquaternium-7 (too bad Polyquaternium-10 hasn’t arrived yet)
3.    2% Cetrimonium Chloride (some bubbles appear, as expected)
4.    2.8% active CAPB = 9.33% as supplied @ 30% solution (at this point the whole solution becomes silightly yellow, but likely just because CAPB is a bit yellow/orange itself)
5.    8.4% active SLES = 12% Texapon N70 (it sharply thickens to a disgusting white slime)

According to my experimentation notes, a different addition order gave good results.
I’ll repeat the experiment with just the above mentioned ingredients, in another order.
I’ll keep you posted.

[Gunther]

The study quoted above says that pH 3.5 keeps vit C+ferulic acid more stable.

[Gunther]

Update:

I tried
Phase A:
30% deionized water 
5% Polyquaternium 7
2% Cetrimonium Chloride
2.8% active Coco-betaine (9.33% as-supplied @ 30%)

Phase B:
15% water
0.1% EDTA Na-4
0.1% Menthol
5% erythritol
12% Texapon N70 (8.4% active SLES)
1.5% Cocamide DEA
5% Euperlan PK 771 Benz pearlizer

While phase B has too little water, after adding Phase B to A, a disgusting, slimy gel formed.

I just realized that I have Coco-betaine and not CAPB. I will retry with CAPB to see if it gets any different,
but I believe it’s failing because bare SLES must be added right after CAPB, and not just a phase B containing it.

[Gunther]

@Belassi  have you compared ALES to SLES head to head, everything else being the same in the formula?

[Gunther]

You may wish to take out the (unproven) vegetable extracts and stick to what’s proven to work

i.e. you can read the following studies, and go from there:

Ferulic Acid Stabilizes a Solution of Vitamins C and E and Doubles
its Photoprotection of Skin

A topical antioxidant solution containing vitamins C and E stabilized by ferulic acid provides protection for human skin against damage caused by ultraviolet irradiation

[Gunther]

@Belassi did you try washing your hands with it?
Either with the bare gel-network, or its solution?

I did, to get a feel for it
and it leaves a smooth, waxy layer.

[Gunther]

How do you go about evaporating all water to find out the percentage of active surfactant?

@Belassi I still believe your Na formula has too much SLS, and too little CAPB to be properly compared to Ammonium surfactants.

[Gunther]

In this P&G patent they used a fatty alcohols mixture + either SLES or Behentrimonium Cl.

Preparation of the Gel Network Pre-Mix
• [0256]
  To prepare the gel network pre-mix, about 20% of the water is heated to about 74° C. and the fatty amphiphile and the secondary surfactant (e.g., Behenyltrimethylammonium chloride (Varisoft BT-85) or Sodium Laureth Sulfate) are added to it. After incorporation, this mixture is passed through a mill and heat exchanger where it is cooled to about 35° C. As a result of this cooling step, the fatty amphiphile, the secondary surfactant, and the water form a crystalline gel network.
• [0257]
  For mixtures of different fatty amphiphiles, it may be beneficial to pre-mix the fatty amphiphile materials before incorporation into the water. This can be done by co-melting the different fatty amphiphiles together and utilizing this melt or cooling into a solid phase and incorporating this into the heated water along with the secondary surfactant. Another variation could be to co-melt the one or more fatty amphiphiles and the secondary surfactant before incorporation into the water. Some gel network compositions with chain melt temperatures between about 27° C. to about 35° C. will need to be cooled below 27° C. to ensure the lamellar phase structure is froze.

https://patents.google.com/patent/US20060024256A1/en

They tried pre-forming the gel-network along some esters like glyceryl distearate/stearate/palmitate, PEGs, sorbitans, but they don’t mention how they compared to plain SLES+fatty alcohol+water.

—

This patent by Unilever claims that glyceryl mono stearate, CTAC and Quaternium 90 Bentonite helps network stability.
Although very few commercial products have Q90B in them, so it didn’t make it to the market.

…We have surprisingly found that conditioning gel phases or gel networks comprising a particulate are more stable in the presence of glyceryl monostearate…
https://encrypted.google.com/patents/WO2009112420A1?cl=en

—

It doesn’t hurt to try making the gel network along some Glyceryl monostearate, to see if it works.

[Gunther]

As @Perry said, Pantene shampoos do contain cetyl and stearyl alcohol

NOURISHING BLENDS
SHAMPOO
…and Lipids (Stearyl Alcohol, Cetyl alcohol) that act like hair’s natural, healthy oils.

PURIFYING INGREDIENTS

SHAMPOO

Cleansing Complex: Sodium Laureth Sulfate, Cocamidopropyl Betaine, Sodium Lauryl Sulfate, Cocamide MEA.

https://pantene.com/en-us/about-us/pantene-ingredients

[Gunther]

Even for single surfactants, switching brands can make a huge difference in concentrations

If I’m not mistaken
Texapon N70 = SLES 70% (I wouldn’t call that liquid, it’s so thick that I call it a gel)
Texapon N5 = SLES 25%
Texapon N5G = SLES 28-30%
so it’s crucial to know which one are you using, for proper comparison.

Still, thanks to reading your posts, when I get my formulas fine-tuned, I’ll try switching to Ammonium surfactants to see if they make a noticeable difference in an already improved formula.

[Gunther]

I meant that when gently swirling pearlizer containing soaps, washes or shampoos
you can see some whiter clouds leaving a trace, which seems to remains in place.

[Gunther]

I believe you’re comparing oranges to (bad) apples
Even though we don’t know the exact composition to propietary Ammonium surfactant blends,
I don’t think they are anything like the formula that you posted.

Probably both: overall surfactant concentrations are lower, and their ratios are improved.

For a fair comparison you can try:
3% SLS powder ( = 3% active SLS)
10% Texapon N70 gel ( = 7% active SLES, thus keeping 3:7 ratio, and 10% overall main surfactant concentration)
10% CAPB solution ( = 3 % active CAPB)
1-1.5% Cocamide DEA/MEA/Oleamide
some salt to thicken
and compare that to propietary Ammonium surfactant blends.

[Gunther]

What your formula looks like expressed in active percentages?

Assuming SLS is 98% pure powder (we’ll call it 100% for ease of calculations)
SLES is only 70% active (Texapon N70 gel or so)

15% SLS powder =15% active SLS
25% SLES gel = 17.5% active SLES
That’s total 32.5% active alkyl sulfates
Ain’t that too much? Why not 9-12 total actives?
(I even succeeded in making a low surfactant, mild hand soap with only 5% active SLES and it did properly thicken with CAPB, Coco DEA/MEA, salt)

This article says that most professional formulators choose a 3:7  SLS:SLES ratio
https://www.happi.com/contents/view_features/2009-09-02/the-formulation-basics-for-personal-cleansers
From the percentages above, your formula equals
4.61 : 5.39  SLS:SLES
Way too much SLS as compared to SLES, and way too much overall surfactants as previously mentioned.

Is 5% active CAPB?
Or 5% as-supplied CAPB?

CAPB is better used at 1/3 (active %) of alkyl sulfates
So if you lower your total SLS+SLES to, say 9%
you’ll need 3% active CAPB
since CAPB is usually supplied as only 30% active,
you’ll need 3% / 0.30 = 10% as-supplied CAPB solution.
Similarly, if you have 38% pure CAPB solution:   3% / 0.38 = 7.89% as-supplied CAPB solution.

Why not some Cocamide DEA/MEA/Oleamide too?

[Gunther]

Benzocaine is only slightly soluble in water:

Soluble in water (0.4 mg/ml at 20° C), methanol, chloroform (500 mg/ml), ethanol (50 mg/ml), and ether (250 mg/ml)
https://www.scbt.com/scbt/product/benzocaine-94-09-7
Click on ‘Technical Info’ tab

Most chemical substances become less soluble as temperature decreases.

You may wish to add another, or switch solvents
This 1945 patent lists its solubility in several solvents
https://patents.google.com/patent/US2457188

You may wish to stick to a proven pharma recipe.

It looks like many of them use polyethylene glycol
…In addition, the vehicle composition might have an effect. Polyethylene glycol is used as the solvent in benzocaine solutions because the local anesthetic is poorly soluble in water.61,62 In our study, the concentrations of polyethylene glycol in the 20 percent benzocaine, 10 percent benzocaine and vehicle gels were 77 percent, 87 percent and 97 percent, respectively…
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3844156/

Just curious on what you plan to use the benzocaine for?

[Gunther]

My advice is to buy an incubator that doesn’t reset itself during brief power outages.
Especially useful when samples are left overnight, so nobody’s able to quickly reset it.

Even old-school dial-type models are preferable to modern electronic ones IMO.
Either that, or an UPS + battery cabinet.

[Gunther]

…Benzyl alcohol has been found to be irritating to the skin at levels 3% or greater. Patch test with 0.65% benzyl alcohol did not produce irritation of the skin…
https://toxnet.nlm.nih.gov/cgi-bin/sis/search/a?dbs+hsdb:@term+@DOCNO+46

While that was patch testing, where the occlusion with adhesive tape causes more irritation that normal topical use,
it’s best to limit BA below 0.65%
You can use BA along other preservatives, like Potassium sorbate, or Sodium Benzoate.

[Gunther]

Some things to consider:

1 At least rent a small office or warehouse. Unless you only plan to service customers by Email/mail, they won’t trust a business located in a garage.

2 You’d need at least a makeshift cleanroom
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleanroom
and/or glovebox
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glovebox
to work with bacteria.
You’d need a way to dispose of bacteria before disposal, by either degrading them with chemicals
On the cheap you can probably use concentrated Sodium hydroxide (be careful) to kill bacteria, then neutralizing it with acid.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sterilization_(microbiology)#Potential_for_chemical_sterilization_of_prions
or flaming/incineration
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sterilization_(microbiology)#Flaming
You just can’t flush live bacteria down the drain.

3 As anything bacterial sounds scary, neighbors might complain to the regulators.
Another reason to rent a small office or warehouse IMO.

4 For some reports, you may need a licensed microbiologist to sign them.
But you can offer yours as ‘preliminary testing’, ‘as-is’, ‘not guarenteed’, or something like that.

5 You need to make sure you get quality bacteria, and they can reproduce. Cultivation on agar plates, and watching under microscope is required in every bacteria batch.

Other than that you can give it a try, if you have the time. It doesn’t seem to require investing a huge amount of money  … unless your local regulations are really stringent.

[Gunther]

I added
77% deionized water
11%  SLES
12% cetearyl alcohol

I didn’t dissolve SLES first, heat water or melt stearyl alcohol first.
I just poured everything together at room temperature
and warmed it up in a water-bath to about 77 C while stirring.
Some bubbles appeared.
Then allowed it to air cool while still in the water-bath.
BTW I used a pewter cup, as I feared it would become solid and I could break a beaker.

The end result looks like a whithier and thicker buttercream but it didn’t become solid.

I washed my hands with it and it didn’t lather at all. It was really conditioning and left a tiny, bright coat on my hands despite it being a quick wash.

It seemed to dissolve in water, with a cloudy, creamy whitish color, and some latter. You can even hear its bubbles crackling.

I’ll rinse my hair with it tomorrow
and leave the rest standing still, to see if stearyl alcohol precipitates out of solution or something.

Then I will try predissolving SLES in water before warming it all from room temperature, so I don’t have to stir SLES that hard and make bubbles in the process.

@Belassi I got a totally different result (cream)
What concentrations, warming/mixing/cooling-off protocol did you use?
Were you able to dissolve the solid in water?

[Gunther]

@Perry if you use several preservatives in one product,
is that 1% upper limit per preservative, or 1% total preservatives added?

[Gunther]

It happens because you have too many ingredients that remain solid powders after water evaporates on the skin

Niacinamide 5% = solid, melting point 129.5 C
N-Acetyl Glucosamine 2.5% = solid, mp 211 C
Allantoin 0.5% = solid, mp 230 C
Hyaluronic acid = solid

While Panthenol remains as a oily liquid, it’s found in such a small amount 2%, that most of the water quickly evaporates leaving powders behind.

So you’d need a slower drying cream, to allow more time for solids to be absorbed in the skin.

[Gunther]

Why anyone who suffered 2nd or 3rd degree burns
wouldn’t use the meds prescribed by ER doctors
and switch them for unproven treatments?