[Gunther]

Chemist77 said:

I am still dumbfounded about this problem, I would generally take the batch water. Throw in the sodium hydroxide, let it mix and slowly pour in the LABSA 96%. And there is absolutely no problems at all, why today only I made a 5 MT batch of dish wash liquid with the same procedure. Hopefully @ozgirl’s suggestions can do the trick for uou. 

Did you get some white streaks immediately after LABSA is poured into NaOH, even if they then disappear?

[Gunther]

What do you need to join the Society of Cosmetic Chemists?

[Gunther]

… and formaldehyde-free formulations don’t work nearly as well.

[Gunther]

ngarayeva001 said:

Isn’t it better to have both BTMS and centrimonium chloride is together?

Yes, but Cetrimonium Chloire (CETAC) often reduces viscosity, unless additional fatty alcohols are added.
Also, there are regulations that limit CETAC % in some countries.

[Gunther]

David said:

I was at a seminar a couple of years ago where the a German dermatologist claimed the increase of sensitation to cosmetic products was due to that parabens are substituted by isothiazolinones…however isothiazolinone is now banned in EU in leave in products.

Parabens are allowed in the EU and Canada
at 0.4% methylparaben, 0.14% propylparaben

I use them both at 75% of the maximum allowed by EU, and still have yet to find a formulation that fails challenge tests.
OTOH I don’t use natural extracts or natural ingredients that might rot.

[Gunther]

DAS said:

What else is in your formula?.

While the formula contains SLES, EDTA, preservative,

Only water Sodium/Potassium hydroxide and LABSA have been added at this point.

I’ll try 
Phase A
Water
KOH

Phase B
Water
LABSA
allow to hydrate and dilute overnight

Then slowly pour Phase B into A, real slow.

If it doesn’t work, I’ll try neutralizing LABSA with baking soda, to see if the highly alkaline NaOH/KOH is decomposing LABSA.

[Gunther]

I just got some Potassium hydroxide to see if it’s better than NaOH in case the cloudiness is from excess sulfonate concentration, as some of my cloudy formulations became clear yellow when diluting them.

Pretty much the problem remains.

So either LABSA must be added to NaOH or KOH real slow, over several hours.
Adding LABSA slowly over several minutes doesn’t seem to work as LABSA is a thick liquid that just sits on the bottom, slow to dissolve.

or LABSA must be diluted in some water first (it remains a thick liquid after dilution) and then slowly add the hydroxide.

BTW I tried switching LABSA suppliers (one LABSA is a bit darker than the other) and the problem remains.

[Gunther]

More and more research suggests that acne is a bacterial infection disease
and that bateria feeds on fatty acids (which oils have)

Cutibacterium acnes

This bacterium is largely commensal and part of the skin flora present on most healthy adult humans’ skin.[8] It is usually just barely detectable on the skin of healthy preadolescents. It lives primarily on, among other things, fatty acids in sebum secreted by sebaceous glands in the follicles. It may also be found throughout the gastrointestinal tract.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cutibacterium_acnes

[Gunther]

A cationic emulsion can be made with

4% Cetrimonium Chloride on an ACTIVE ingredient basis
2% cetearyl alcohol

or just use premade BTMS.

[Gunther]

It look like parabens estrogenic activity was greatly exaggerated

Breast cancer

No evidence shows that application of consumer products containing parabens cause cancer.[10] Investigations by the American Cancer Society and FDA found that current levels of parabens in consumer products were not dangerous.[11][12] A 2005 review concluded “it is biologically implausible that parabens could increase the risk of any estrogen-mediated endpoint, including effects on the male reproductive tract or breast cancer” and that “worst-case daily exposure to parabens would present substantially less risk relative to exposure to naturally occurring endocrine active chemicals in the diet such as the phytoestrogen daidzein.”[2]

Estrogenic activity

Animal experiments have shown that parabens have weak estrogenic activity, acting as xenoestrogens.[13] In an in vivo study, the effect of butylparaben was determined to be about 1/100,000th that of estradiol, and was only observed at a dose level around 25,000 times higher than the level typically used to preserve products.[14] The study also found that the in vivo estrogenic activity of parabens is reduced by about three orders of magnitude compared to in vitro activity.

The estrogenic activity of parabens increases with the length of the alkyl group. It is believed that propylparaben is estrogenic to a certain degree as well,[15] though this is expected to be less than butylparaben by virtue of its less lipophilic nature. Since it can be concluded that the estrogenic activity of butylparaben is negligible under normal use, the same should be concluded for shorter analogs due to estrogenic activity of parabens increasing with the length of the alkyl group.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paraben

After reading the references cited
I believe parabens may behave more like Selectrive Estrogen Receptor Modulators SERMs, having a very weak estrogenic activity on their own, but prevent the stronger estrogens from binding to the estrogen receptor.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Selective_estrogen_receptor_modulator

[Gunther]

The big problem with cosmetics is that the face skin cells renew themselves every month or so
but dark circles and wrinkles remain

so either the DNA or its epigenetic surroundings have been damaged.

Only about localized whiteners might help with dark circles.

[Gunther]

Thanks a lot guys 
appreciate it.

[Gunther]

Does it feel much better than squalane?

[Gunther]

Do you have some links to the studies?

[Gunther]

Sugar alcohols only provide a cooling sensation in anhydrous products
not those water based.

IMO the best “natural” preservative for that formulation is ethyl alcohol
being man made it ain’t really natural, but at least it’s fully plant derived.

[Gunther]

That’s the theory
but does that really work in real life?
Did you find any independent studies on it?

[Gunther]

SOD is a large and complex molecule that may not be absorbed by the skin.

Real SOD is extremely expensive, and more so because most ain’t absorbed by the skin, thus out of reach unless you’re formulating for billionaires.

Affordable SOD may not contain real SOD

There’s SOD1, SOD2 and SOD3. You have to figure out which one to use.

[Gunther]

https://www.happi.com/contents/view_features/2012-04-02/formulating-liquid-laundry-detergents

IMO SLES is not needed or desirable as linear alkylbenzene sulfonate (neutralized LABSA) already makes enough foam on its own, and cleans better.
I can only see SLES be helpful in a hand prespotter, for better flash foam.

And choose Potassium hydroxide instead of NaOH, it withstands cold temperatures better without clouding.

[Gunther]

Just go to a essential oils shop and smell them all yourself.
You can also go to a shop that sells copycat fragrances.

[Gunther]

For liquid leave on (spray on) conditioners BTMS remains liquid at 2% or less, preferably 1.5%. 
Don’t add any additional fatty alcohols as they’ll make it thicker and BTMS already contains some cetyl alcohol.
You can also make it liquid with Cetrimonium Chloride CETAC but please check out its regulations limit for leave on products.

For cream, leave on conditioners something around 3% BTMS with some extra fatty alcohols to thicken it as desired. IMO cetearyl is preferable to cetyl which BTMS already contains.

For rinse off cream conditioners something like 4-5% works fine. Add fatty alcohols to thicken it as needed.

I feel adding CETAC gives better slip than BTMS on its own.

BTMS can also emulsify silicones and oils, like coconut oil which help a bit with increasing slip.

I never used slippery elm myself.

[Gunther]

When it comes to tastes, there’s no better or worse. Tastes vary.
PVP K-90 is more washable (easily rinsed out), but acrylates provide more hold.

You’d need to test them both to see which you like.
Then you’d need to figure out which one your customers will like.

[Gunther]

Infusion ain’t acceptable.
Water should be listed first.

[Gunther]

haroon said:

thanks khoikhoa, 
HPMC means?
now the problams is that when temperture is become -ve then it cloud,after increasing temperture it slightly start clearance.  

That means solubility decreases, thus becoming cloudy, as temperature drops.

IMHO The first step is to replace Sodium Hydroxide with Potassium hydroxide to neutralize sulfonic acid
as Potassium salts are more soluble, thus less likely to cloud.

[Gunther]

I heard the biggest disappointment with big retailers
is the low sales volume:
even big brands only sell a few items daily, some days none of your products was sold.

OTOH if they have hundreds of stores, sales volume increases
and then you only have to drop products in one place, the retailer warehouse.

[Gunther]

IMO it’s better to offer them a % of revenues (sales)