[grapefruit22]

@MarkBroussard How do you know if sodium hyaluronate is fully hydrated?

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@MarkBroussard They did pH adjustment with citric acid after mixing sodium hyaluronate. They said it was impossible that sodium hyaluronate did not fully dissolve because it would be visible and the idea to solve it was to first add citric acid to the water (in such an amount that finally the product had a pH of 5), and then add sodium hyaluronate. Just change the order. Does it make sense?

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I can’t believe how popular this discussion is.

I’m 28 and even I don’t remember the world before paraben free But I don’t think people really believe parabens can cause cancer. It would mean they believe that safety regulators are completely failing, and that there may be an ingredient in any product that can kill us. I believe that this is simply a doubt.

As for the effectiveness of the products (I do not mean stability or preservation systems), I would say that the average natural product is inferior to the average synthetic product, because they are more difficult to formulate and require greater knowledge of the ingredients. It doesn’t mean that there are no natural products as good as the best synthetic ones, because there are many such products.

I don’t believe that people can rate a product higher just because it is natural and they “feel” better with it. Then everyone would eat kale chips instead of the traditional ones.

It would be better if natural cosmetics were regulated somehow, but to be honest, I’m a fan of natural cosmetics, but some rules piss me off. For example, this rule that the product must contain 70% ingredients of natural origin, where water is not a natural ingredient. In most products most of the composition is water. So if you want to meet this requirement, you have to use a hydrosol instead of water. In practice you start importing tons of water from another continent. Usually, Aloe Vera Juice is used to achieve the required %. If someone wanted to use this ingredient for specific benefits, they could just order 200 x concentrated powder. But through the shackles of the certificate / requirements this cannot be done and you have to import “water”. 

I believe that natural products may (but they don’t have to) be an ethical choice. If, for example, you want to make a hair oil and you have a choice: use silicones or use biodegradable oil, the production of which uses fruit hand picked from the tree, and this work is the only or the main earning opportunity for the locals, the second option is for me the more ethical one. But making a palm oil derivative product so oily that no one will want to use it is not a good option, even though the product would be natural.

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Actually, the more flexible law for traditional local products is quite typical. From what I understand, such products need to get a special Ayush license / certificate?

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But many ingredients have some color that affects the color of the final product. Most of the extracts have a fairly distinct color, they are generally quite neutral - yellow, orange, green, but how to judge if these colors have an impact on marketability? I once made a face toner with a few extracts and believe me or not, I unintentionally got a rather distinct yellow-orange color. I couldn’t decide whether this color was good or not - on the one hand it was a nice vivid color, on the other hand it looked a bit like urine   

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Pharma said:

grapefruit22 said:

Can lysolecithin darken at elevated temperatures similar to lecithin?

Yes, I’m afraid so . Hydrogenated lecithin is more stable but still on the fragile side of things.

Personally, I don’t like heat testing too much unless your product acutally experiences such temperatures during its life. Every ‘speed test’ used to predict long term stability has to be evaluated for its usefulness for any given product. Emulsion stability (physical integrity of the mixed water-oil system) at elevated temperatures is okay to use as predictive parameter whilst chemical stability might indicate degradation although there might not be any. Also, colour (pigment formation) often shows no linear correlation with degradation.

As antoxidants use ascorbic acid or ascorbyl palmitate (depending on what you want to protect) and tocopherol. Rosemary extracts can be a good addition (a rosmarinic acid rich version would be best in conjunction with ascorbic acid whilst carnosic acid/carnosol rich extracts would be my partner of choice for ascorbyl palmitate). If it’s not an issue with your philosophy, dithionite or metabisulfite can help as well (either as substitute for ascorbic acid or in addition to it).

Thank you, your knowledge is tremendous.
I’m asking about it because I like to use Ecogel (a product similar to Siligel, but with lysolecithin instead of lecithin) for thickening and I was wondering if it could cause similar problems with darkening.

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Perry said:

Just as a caution, it is not legal in the US to use most plant extracts as color additives. And saying you add an extract for some other benefit & the color is just a happy side-effect is also not legal according to the CFR.

“For a material otherwise meeting the definition of color additive to be exempt from section 721 of the act, on the basis that it is used (or intended to be used) solely for a purpose or purposes other than coloring, the material must be used in a way that any color imparted is clearly unimportant insofar as the appearance, value, marketability, or consumer acceptability is concerned. (It is not enough to warrant exemption if conditions are such that the primary purpose of the material is other than to impart color.)“

It’s interesting. But what if someone really wants to use Copper Peptide for its functionality? In such a case, would the color of the product have to be hidden somehow, for example, by using an opaque packaging?

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Pharma said:

Chamazulene, the blue pigment in blue tansy EO, is fairly unstable and will most likely contribute to colour change.

Are the oils and butter highly refined or unadulterated/vergine?

Once one ingredient starts oxidising there’s a fair chance that it sets off an avalanche (my guess is that lecithin will be part of it). From personal experience, lecithin browns faster than highly unsaturated oils at elevated temperatures.

Can lysolecithin darken at elevated temperatures similar to lecithin?

[grapefruit22]

Jo Malone is a registered trademark, so I don’t think you can use it in advertising your product, even using the word “type”. I would stick to the “orange blossom”.

[grapefruit22]

Blueberry oil is also sensitive to heating. How much have you added?

[grapefruit22]

Let’s wait what the adults say, but lecithin can darken with elevated temperatures, and you have it in Heliosoft and Siligel, so maybe that’s the cause.

[grapefruit22]

According to the COSMOS standard, it is obligatory to indicate the percentage of ingredients of natural / organic origin.
In the end, it all comes down to whether you have to stick to the whole formula: “the product contains 98% ingredients of natural origin according to the X standard”, or you just use one word “natural”, because it is simpler and shorter. An additional explanation could be mandatory: “the product contains 98% ingredients of natural origin according to the X standard and 2% synthetic ingredients”, but this seems redundant.

I wonder, if I dye my hair, is it then natural, of natural origin, or synthetic?

Large companies are also starting to focus on ingredients of natural origin. You can check the new Chanel and Kiehl’s products. And the new Shiseido brand:
https://www.ulebeauty.com/

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So they really want as much as 70% of the extracts in the product? It is surprising and not in line with other standards.
Is it possible to preserve a product properly by using only preservatives of natural origin? I know this is a fairly general question, but maybe quite relevant. Preservatives of natural origin (not nature-identical) I found: Sodium Levulinate, Sodium Anisate, Benzoic Acid, Phenethyl Alcohol, Sodium Phytate (as chelating agent), Pentylene Glycol (as a booster).

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https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/house-bill/5017/text?r=4&s=1
https://www.congress.gov/bill/117th-congress/house-bill/5872?s=1&r=3

The Natural Cosmetic Act you discussed is the first or second document?
In Natrue, the required amount of natural substances other than water is quite small (depending on the product), according to Cosmos Natural water is included as a natural ingredient and they don’t require minimum amount of other natural ingredients. But in the first document they require 70% of natural substances other than water. It’s a lot.
I thought the citric acid was mostly of natural origin, not from citrus, but from the fermentation of glucose from plants.

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Perry said:

Cosmos and Natrue are simply organizations that just made up their own standard. There is nothing official about them. There is nothing stopping anyone from starting their own competing natural standard and providing certifications.

The assumptions of such a certificate should not be against the law. If there is a legal definition of a “natural cosmetic”, you cannot come up with another conflicting definition and sell the product as natural. Therefore, I think that if such a definition were actually to be made, it would not allow less than Natrue or Cosmos, and ingredients that are natural, of natural origin and identical to natural, would be allowed. Otherwise, these organizations would have to change their rules, and most of the products would lose their certification, because most probably use preservatives like Sodium Benzoate. I don’t think this will happen.
Certification organizations and certified companies would be the most “disadvantaged” if a legal definition were to be established, because why pay for a certificate if you meet the legal definition for free.
It is difficult to check whether the manufacturer actually uses an ingredient of natural origin in each batch, and that they are much more expensive than synthetic, I see a lot of scope for abuse in the case of ingredients that may be of natural origin or may be synthetic.

@PhilGeis Not natural, it is of natural origin: https://minasolve.com/news/minasolve-launches-three-antimicrobial-solutions-based-on-biobased-caprylyl-glycol/

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Maybe they mentioned caprylyl glycol, propanediol, and citric acid, because they can be of natural origin or synthetic. If Sodium Benzoate or the ingredients above were to be illegal in natural cosmetics, then what about organizations such as Cosmos or Natrue, which for years have been offering certificates according to criteria that accept such ingredients?

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It looks like it was reformulated a few months ago:
https://www.newbeauty.com/fresh-soy-cleanser-update/
I only used the old version, you can find INCI here:
https://www.cultbeauty.com/fresh-soy-face-cleanser-various-sizes/13463049.html
I’ve been using it for years, I like it because it doesn’t dry out at all. When I test a product or ingredient, I wash my face after each use, sometimes several times a day, and I had no problems with this cleanser.
I thought about it because you mentioned that you want the conditioning effect. When rinsing it off, you can feel that the skin is super smooth, and it reminds me of the feeling of rinsing off hair conditioner. After drying, I don’t feel this smoothness very clearly on my face. A bit different than with ingredients such as PCA Glyceryl Oleate or Sucrose Cocoate. They affect the foam in my opinion, but I don’t feel this smoothness while rinsing. In addition, the PCA Glyceryl Oleate irritated my eyes, and the Sucrose Cocoate had a distinct, not so nice coconut smell.
I used Disodium/Sodium Cocoyl Glutamate, but the conditioning effect was much less noticeable, and imperceptible to me when using gum for thickening.
In my little experience, it’s rather hard to create a non-drying product without the use of thickeners. I tried a combination of different surfactants, with and without refatting surfactants, and the amount of surfactants that was enough for cleansing + was non-drying, was not sufficient to thicken even with a lot of salt. I mean, of course after adding salt it was thicker, but just not enough. On the other hand, in some cases if you use a thickener, the foaming and cleansing power is weakened. Then you can try to thicken the product in another way, for example with Sorbithix L-100.

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@Abdullah Maybe you can take a look at what ingredients are generally used by other moisturizing face cleansers - for example Fresh Soy Cleanser is quite popular.

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You can try follow ISO standard, here you can find natural index of this ingredient: http://certified-natural-cosmetics.org/list-of-iso-indices

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Thank you all for so many recommendations. I have access to Dicaprylyl Carbonate, Coco Caprylate, I’ll start with this. I will also try Isoamyl Laurate again, I used it a long time ago and I don’t remember why I resigned from it 
Do you have a problem with odor of Isoamyl Laurate? I saw in the brochure that the odor may change over time, I have had a sample for about a year and the odor is actually quite noticeable now.
@Anca_Formulator I didn’t know that’s why they stopped selling it. Companies that used it in palm free products have a problem again.
@Graillotion I recently came across cascading emollience in this article: https://www.cosmeticsdesign-asia.com/Product-innovations/EMOSMART-EMOGREEN-the-future-of-emollients-is-here
Do you know any easily available product where this technique is used? I have been using gel moisturizers mostly and they all actually use only one emollient. It’s probably a matter of habit and personal preference, but I’d love to try something with a blend of emollients to see what I’m missing.

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I would try with Solagum AX or Ecogel instead of Xanthan Gum.

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I agree with @Paprik, I also had some problems with sun exposure after using acids, and it was also most noticeable on my nose. Every year I see better and better sunscreens on the market, now you can get SPF 50 with only 10% zinc oxide, so using them is not as inconvenient as it used to be.

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Pharma said:

PhilGeis said:

@ Pharma -thanks,  think the “preservative -free” marketing hype shows Bayer in this case is unethical.  As you point out, it’s just hexanediol - a synthetic compound that finds common use as a preservative.

Just as an update (better late than never): Astonishingly, my inquiry had Bayer to have a meeting… The tech person called me back and said that their layers are sure that they are in accordance with European cosmetics regulations because 1,2-hexanediol isn’t in the preservative annexe and that they will get away with it being a skin conditioning ingredient, no matter whether or not the product would be contamination free without it. They also think it’s absolutely okay to communicate ‘preservation free’ to retailers and putting this in the brochure (which, they say, is meant for retailers but ‘Why don’t you let some here with the products and feel free to give it to interested customers, just order more if you need more’) as long as it’s not mentioned in TV adds and on the packaging.

I have the impression that they see themselves on the winning side because they just know how to layer up better than anyone who might sue (or rather, they know that nobody is willing to pay money for a lawsuit wherewith no money can be made).

Does anyone here have a more in depths knowledge of EU legal rules in this regard?

The issue is described in Annex III: https://ec.europa.eu/docsroom/documents/24847

The claim ‘free from preservatives’ should not be used when a product contains (an) ingredient(s) showing a protective effect against microorganisms, which are not included in Annex V of Regulation 1223/2009, e. g. alcohol. If the responsible person has evidence that the particular ingredient or the combination of such ingredients does not contribute to the product protection, it might be appropriate to use the claim (e.g. challenge test results of the formula without the particular ingredient).

Claims are controlled by the trade inspection of a given country, so if a product with such claims is not sold in a registered store (stationary or online), I don’t see the possibility of checking such a product

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GeorgeBenson said:

Abdullah said:

Unfortunately i don’t have experience with oatmeal. 

If you want to make a product that is more effective than top products in the market, you cant make it. 
Your goal should be first how to make an emulsion and then how to provide a benefit from it. 

Phenoxyethanol+ IPBC+ EDTA + pH 4-4.5
 or phenoxyethanol+ parabens +EDTA+ pH 4-4.5

I would disagree. I am by no means an expert in this field but i’ve been experimenting long enough to where i routinely make stuff that is more effective than some top products on the market. Sometimes the top products aren’t the best, and they may have to make sacrifices for cost or other reasons that you do not if you’re just making stuff for yourself as a hobby. Keep experimenting and your formula will get better and better!

I agree. Years ago, I stopped using cosmetics from big companies because they were not effective enough for me. For example, big companies use ingredients with known and proven effects, such as glycolic acid or retinol, but I don’t think I’ve seen a 1% retinol product from a large company. Glycolic acid? I saw only 5%. This can be due to many issues, such as cost or minimizing irritation, but for me the most important thing is effectiveness and visible results.

Abdullah said:

Graillotion said:

Abdullah said:

 

In my opinion top products are made by top chemists in the industry.

 Top chemists…are often hamstrung by costing chemists.   

Yes but quality will never be the same. 

The products i produce are i think the highest quality i my market compared to my competitors, even those from big brand’s ( because here they are all fake). 
Even doctor’s are recommending my skin and hair products . 

I did purchase some Pantene shampoos from UAE (because here they are all fake) to compare myself to it. Pantene was much much better compared to what i make.
Then i decided that i should only compare myself to low quality local producs .

@Abdullah
Why do you assess that your product was worse? Just curious.

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@Stanley

Impurities are not ingredients and should not be listed. 

https://cosmeticseurope.eu/files/8814/6407/5369/Guidelines_on_Cosmetic_Product_Labelling_-_2011.pdf