[ggpetrov]

Abdullah said:

@ggpetrov what emulsifier are you using? 

I use various emulsifiers, actually i don’t use only one in my emulsions. But anyway I think the consistency regulators - fatty alcohols, solid esters or butters need of this additional mixing. At least when we speak of a homemade emulsions.

[ggpetrov]

I always mix my emulsions after 8-12 hours. In my experience, 5 minutes of mixing with a Bosh clever mixx, drastically improves the consistency and the haptic properties. I’ve never worked with your emulsifier, so i can’t say anything in details. 

[ggpetrov]

Cosmetic76 said:

hi yes I have. I agree it feels more airy and I quite like it. however unfortunately everyone I asked to test it said the cream feels like there’s candle wax on their hands after it absorbs. Would you have an idea how to make it feel less waxy? Suppose a bit more wet? I tried all sorts, olivwax, brassica alcohol, etc.. 

Olivem 1000 is a mixture of waxes by its own. So it’s completely normal to have such a waxy effect. Me personally love this emulsifier so much, because it gives light emulsions with “moist” afterfeel. I’ve never used it in the fat phase, so I can’t tell the difference. I don’t know, perhaps you miss something  or it’s a matter of the workflow. Recenly I’ve made a cream gel for men’s face with a 6% Olivem in the water phase, mango butter and Cyclomethicone, and a lots of humectants, such a - Sodium Lactate, Glycerin and Propylene glycol and it’s really fantastic. It’s very light, it spreads very easy over the skin, has a very quick absorbtion time and the most important - the feel on the skin is fantastic - the first few seconds there’s a bit of waxy feel, but then this feel dissapears and the skin is fresh.

[ggpetrov]

Cosmetic76 said:

I found Olivem 1000 leaving a bit of a waxy feeling

Have you tried to put Olivem 1000 in the water phase? I think this workflow will give you a completely different feeling.

[ggpetrov]

Zink said:

I’m wondering what’s the best general practice when using gelling agents such as xanthan gum in typical emulsions (in all cases pre-dispersed in glycerin and added under high shear mixing for around 5 minutes).

1. Before emulsification: Adding the hot thickened water phase gradually to the the hot oil phase.
2. After emulsification: Emulsifying the formula without any gelling agent, and adding it right after having emulsified it (e.g. 5 min after).
3. At the end after cooldown: After having added all cooldown ingredients at the end.

I realize the devil may be in the details here and it could depend on the exact gelling agent and emulsifiers used, in this particular case I’m using Montanov L and Ultrapuregel.

As far as I know, it also depends of the emulsification system. For example : Emulsifiers which are added to the hot water phase - Olivem 1000, Cetearyl glucoside or Polyaquol 2w don’t like the gums to be added in the same time into the water phase, because they are messing the emulsification process. Me personally add the Xanthan gum after the initial homogenization.

[ggpetrov]

helenhelen said:

I can maybe contribute from a non-chemistry viewpoint as I went through a long phase of using xanthan and sclerotium gum at the beginning of my journey before dropping them as you did.

I didn’t like the “Soft” version of xanthan gum. I tried Cosphaderm X-Soft which is much less stringy/stretchy than Cosphaderm X-34, but for me has an unpleasant waxy/tacky afterfeel that lasts through washes. I’ve never heard anyone else complain of this though so it could just be me, or the combination of the ingredients I was using at the time.

I am curious how exactly did you find that the unpleasant feeling is caused by the the Xanthan gum? The Xanthan gum is used in practically almost every cosmetic emulsion, but they all are so different by their haptical properies. So if you feel all of that unpleasant effects, maybe the reason is somewhere else.
Also, we are talking about Glyceryl stearate peg-100 stearate and Glyceryl stearate citrate which are far away from the imagine of an emulsifiers, which give haptically pleasant emulsions.
This forum constantly disappoints me, especially with that kind of inadequate threads.

[ggpetrov]

Thanks guys, I really appreciate your consideration. The truth is I already have some formulas that work quite well, but I wanted to make things in a more professional manner. Ofcourse usually for a base I use some prototype formulas taken from the manufacturers of a cosmetic raw materials, but the final formulas have “my own touch”. This “final touch” is a result of a many experiments and it seems that it’s the only way, at least for a homecrafter like me.

@vitalys - thanks for the suggestion, but it sounds too hard for me. I have studied four semesters chemistry at the university, but it’s still hard for me to understand that system.

[ggpetrov]

Imwitor 375 - awful choice! It’s quite sensitive to temperature differencies and electrolytes. You’ll need a powerful antioxidant fo it, because it tends to oxidizes too fast.

Bergamuls - same story. You have to proceed it at least a 40 minutes constantly, because you will notice a particles of it in the emulsion. 

[ggpetrov]

SaraLee said:

Thanks so much for all the feedback everyone!  What are your thoughts then of combining GSC with glyceryl stearate or GS SE (and would one be better than the other) and dropping the coco glucoside?

It’s up to you. You can make some tests, and decide for yourself which is optimal. Glyceryl stearate has a kind of “sealing” effect to the skin. In the summer this can’t be very comfortable feel. GMS Citrate gives heavier emulsions than GMS SE, but GMS SE thickens the emulsions significantly better. So the amount of fatty alcohols should be precisely calculated.

[ggpetrov]

helenhelen said:

ggpetrov said:

“nice skin feel” is too uncertain. If we are talking about a short absorbtion time, no stickiness, no shine and a “moist” feel, then my favourite is Glyceryl stearate SE. Because of its unstable nature, usually I mix it with another high HLB emulsifier, for example - Emulsan, or Tego care 450. Also you can try to combine it with the Olivem, but Olivem in the water phase and no soaping will appear.

@ggpetrov I’ve never used Glyceryl Stearate SE before but have used Tego Care 450. How do the two compare for you in terms of application and afterfeel?

Tego care 450 used alone, tends to give a “rich” emulsions, which are very occlusive. By adding GMS SE, the emulsions become lighter and fast absorbing but with a strong moisturizing effect. I use 1 part Tego care 450 and 2-3 parts GMS SE.

[ggpetrov]

“nice skin feel” is too uncertain. If we are talking about a short absorbtion time, no stickiness, no shine and a “moist” feel, then my favourite is Glyceryl stearate SE. Because of its unstable nature, usually I mix it with another high HLB emulsifier, for example - Emulsan, or Tego care 450. Also you can try to combine it with the Olivem, but Olivem in the water phase and no soaping will appear.

[ggpetrov]

DaveStone said:

ggpetrov said:

Sodium lactate is much better than the Propanediol as a humectant, but can destabilize the emulsion, also at certain percent can be photo-sensitizing. I use three humectants in my lotions - Glycerine, Propylene glycol and Sodium lactate, but I don’t use polymeric thickeners, only Xanthan.

Better, as in it penetrates deeper? Or holds more water?

It can hold more moisture, also it’s natural for the skin, as it is part of the NMF. About the irritation - I don’t know! I have a client with a psoriasis, and her skin doesn’t mind Sodium lactate in her lotion.

[ggpetrov]

Sodium lactate is much better than the Propanediol as a humectant, but can destabilize the emulsion, also at certain percent can be photo-sensitizing. I use three humectants in my lotions - Glycerine, Propylene glycol and Sodium lactate, but I don’t use polymeric thickeners, only Xanthan.

[ggpetrov]

Sincityfire said:

ggpetrov said:

drastically changes the haptics of the emulsion.

That’s really interesting! Out of curiousity, what tends to happen?

It changes the way you feel the emulsion on the skin. I think it become softer and absorbs faster. Also I don’t think it affects to viscosity, I don’t have that impression.

[ggpetrov]

For me that’s the workflow. The homogenization after 8 - 12 hours, drastically changes the haptics of the emulsion. I guess that’s because the fatty alcohols and waxes needs more time to stabilize themselfs in the emulsion. Please note that this is workflow for homecrafters, also it is aplicable for lotions, where the viscosity isn’t too thick. 

[ggpetrov]

This attachment is homogenizer by itself. There are different homogenizing attachments by their design. MiniPro is targeted as a food homogenizer, but it can be used by homecrafters. I think, the homogenizer take place at the beginning of the emulsification, where the viscosity is still low. After that you should switch to a propeller mixer, until cooldown. I think that’s the proper workflow to make an emulsion. It doesn’t make sense to use a homogenizer in high viscosity emulsions.

[ggpetrov]

Perry, I’d add also the cosmetics for solarium here. Many people believe that theese lotions are special, but actually they are not. 

[ggpetrov]

I found the Lotionpro 165 has a sticky and waxy feeling, even with a very low lipid phase. 

[ggpetrov]

abierose said:

ggpetrov said:

abierose said:

@ggpetrov I agree about the feel of cetearyl alcohol and it not having a waxy feeling. 100% agree about the Glycerin. I’m fairly new to the 165 emulsifier…what would you suggest using? Thank you!

Well, I see your new formula is a big mess. First you mix the PQ 7 - which is cationic, with the Glyceryl stearate citrate - which is anionic. Also I see the Glyceryl stearate & PEG 100 is still present in the new formula. Why is that? Too much Cetearyl alcohol - I guess! Why you put the Allantoin at the cool down phase? Also, why you are need of so much oils and emolients? Why your formula doesn’t contain any polymeric thickeners? Also the percentages are totally messed up.

Thank you for your feedback. What should I expect to see when using pq7 and the gsc emulsifier together in the same formula? I haven’t had any issues with stability or anything as of yet and it is plenty thick enough…the Allantoin I have in the cool down ingredients to avoid possible crystallization from cooling too quickly…is this not accurate? Is there any reason not to have it in cool down? What about the percentages in my formula…can you be more specific? Thank you!

I don’t know what will happen if you mix an incompatible ingredients. I just don’t do that, because it doesn’t make a sense. I think you’d better read about the basics of the chemistry before making anything in that point. I use Allantoin in the all of my formulas, but I can’t imagine to put it into the cool emulsion, because it will not dissolve. The Allantoin is heat resistant, so I can’t see the problem here. What does it mean ” to avoid possible crystallization from cooling too quickly”, If you cool down your emulsion shockedly, maybe you could bring this effect. I don’t see a reason to put a PQ7 into a face cream. I haven’t worked with this ingredient. If you have to bring a conditioning effect, there are others ways -  to use a cationic emulsifiers, for example. By the way I am not completely sure, but I think the Allantoin also have an anionic nature. I don’t know, just try to keep your recipes as simple as possible. If you wish to make a more complex products, you will need a lot of knowledge and experience. GSC is great emulsifier, so you could check the Evonik’s website with their example formulations, so it could be a good starting point.

https://personal-care.evonik.com/product/personal-care/en/products-solutions/formulations/pages/formulations.aspx?fopid=16710

[ggpetrov]

abierose said:

@ggpetrov I agree about the feel of cetearyl alcohol and it not having a waxy feeling. 100% agree about the Glycerin. I’m fairly new to the 165 emulsifier…what would you suggest using? Thank you!

Well, I see your new formula is a big mess. First you mix the PQ 7 - which is cationic, with the Glyceryl stearate citrate - which is anionic. Also I see the Glyceryl stearate & PEG 100 is still present in the new formula. Why is that? Too much Cetearyl alcohol - I guess! Why you put the Allantoin at the cool down phase? Also, why you are need of so much oils and emolients? Why your formula doesn’t contain any polymeric thickeners? Also the percentages are totally messed up.

[ggpetrov]

I am not sure if PolyAquol is suitable for low viscosity emulsions. I’d rather be use Glyceryl stearate citrate with the addition of small amount of Cetearyl alcohol. I also use the Emulsan, in combinations, and it also can create stable low viscosity emulsions. 
Have you tried to put the PolyAquol into the hot water phase? That’s an option too, and the sensorials should be different. 

[ggpetrov]

I didn’t like the PolyAquol. All of my emulsions have broken, because of the preservative (Optiphen). Anyway, if you are not concern about the use of synthetic emolients, I’d suggest you to use some mineral oil. I find it very occlusive but without being greasy and shiny.

[ggpetrov]

abierose said:

Graillotion said:

Oh…and emulsifier inclusion rate looks low.

I kinda thought that too. I’ll bump that up. Thank you!!

I find the Glyceryl stearate & PEG 100 stearate gives a sticky and waxy emulsions. Despite the fact that your formula contains too much glycerine, maybe you should change the emulsifier too. I don’t think the Cetearyl alcohol has a waxy feeling, but it has a great stabilizing properties.

[ggpetrov]

Heike said:

Please have a look to Urea; because of your water based formula it needs to be buffered to keep the ph stable. You can try a buffering system with sodium lactate and lactic acid. Sodium lactate is also a effective humectant which will show synergetic effects with glycerin.

Betaine is good in combination with glycerin because of reduce the tackiness of it. But have a look to the total amount of glycerin - like Jemolian recommends.

For barriere repair I will recommend an other kind of ingredients or an other product type. You may find effective barrier regulation with linolic acid (in natural oils, some are more oxidative stable like others) combined with phytosterols and hydrogenated phosphatidylcholine. It’s a little bit tricky to do this with acne pronouned skin - try to begin with a very low percentage dosage. You can formulate a hydro dispersion gel with low parts of lipids.

Sorry for the off-topic. Welcome to the forum miss Heike! You are a legend and truly inspirational person. I’ve learned a lot from Olionatura and the forum to the site. Despite of the fact that you are a natural cosmetics formulator, your opinion has been always objective.I really appreciate that! I think your presence here would be very positive, especially for the newest formulators. Greetings from Bulgaria.

Alexander

[ggpetrov]

AlexV said:

Abdullah said:

Congratulations

i just wanted someone to tell me if these percentages are “good” or not, for a regular simple moisturize cream

Test them on yourself, test them with an other people, get their feedback and according to this, you would know if your formulas are good or not, and if and where they could be improved. Also, don’t forget that the processing method is also essential to the overall perception of the product.

You can use this formula calculator :