[GabyD]

Hi Sonia, I didn’t get it in the end. I am thinking of investing in a large homogeniser as I went to see one and it was amazing!

Whereabouts in Australia are you, if you don’t mind me asking?

[GabyD]

And thanks for your suggestions @Dreamer77. We are giving Microcare SB another go with a lower pH.  We should start getting results back from the PET in about 7 days.

[GabyD]

It’s not how much it’s cost me, it is the losses from two large orders that I had, one from an online shopping channel who ordered over $100k worth of stock.  That order has now been cancelled due to the preservative issue.  The other order was for 1,600 units from another company.  Again, that has been cancelled due to the preservative issue.  The first company cancelled due to the delays it caused (they have gone with another supplier) and the second company cancelled because they were worried about safety.  Rightly so.

[GabyD]

@Betterusername, I agree with everything you said.  This is our livelihood.  My business and ultimately my children have suffered as a result of someone else’s incompetence and that makes me very angry. 

[GabyD]

Just to confirm, @Betterusername were in contact via PM and we both used the same formulator!

One thing I would say to all the formulators and Contract Manufacturers out there is please PLEASE give a deadline and stick to it.  And if a bigger contract comes along, please don’t just dump us smaller companies, particularly when we have paid you thousands of dollars.

[GabyD]

@MarkBroussard I just wish I had found this website 2 years ago. “Carol” is a qualified chemist. She also teaches several cosmetic chemistry courses and is a member of several professional organisations here in Australia.

Before “Carol”, I was using another formulator, Rita, who had come highly recommended. I asked her to make us a foaming tan (this was before we went organic and palm oil-free). She made it within a few days and it was great! It sold out very quickly so I asked her to make some more. She told me I had to drive to her lab to deliver some DHA for the tan. It was the first day of my new (day) job, but I risked it to take the DHA to her. That was the last I heard from her. I called and emailed, left messages through mutual contacts… nothing. I didn’t even get my DHA back.

And before her there was Diane. Again, very keen. Long career with L’Oreal. I found her details on a professional website. After the initial few emails we arranged to meet. She didn’t turn up. Full of apologies, arranged to meet again, but didn’t turn up and I never heard from her again.

[GabyD]

Hi @Betterusername, I am sorry to hear that you’ve had the same bad luck as us with formulators. It is soul destroying, isn’t it?

I had another bad experience with a contract manufacturer before I went to “Carol.”  I paid them $3k to make a tan for us. They made a great sample, however they had used one wrong essential ingredient so I asked for another sample. Months went by. The chemist ignored all my communications. Then out of the blue after 6 or 7 months I got an email from the company telling me that the chemist had left the company but not to worry - they had employed another genius chemist by the name of T.S. (preserving her anonymity here). They told me she had years of experience and would look after our case.

I went straight onto Linkedin and found her, but discovered that she was in fact just an admin person who they had promoted to Head Chemist. She hadn’t even been to university, let alone got any kind of chemistry degree.

So for those of you who question why unqualified people like myself end up doing our own formulating, this is why. I am sure things are better in the US. Alas, some of us are in the backwaters of countries like Australia where it is impossible to get anything done properly.

[GabyD]

I second what’s been said here. My client insisted on a ‘natural’ preservative and it has been a veritable nightmare. The problems are two-fold:

1. Natural preservatives are generally not very good.

2. A natural product is likely to have lots of other natural ingredients which necessitate a better-than-average preservative.

[GabyD]

@ngarayeva001 Thanks, that’s very kind of you to say. Is the formula really that bad 😮 ?

[GabyD]

I have an update: the manufacturers of the preservative have invited me in for a meeting to talk about a way forward. They have offered their services to get the formula right, which is very generous of them. At last, I see some light at the end of the tunnel. With their expertise, I should have a product that is safe.

By the way, this…

(5) Don’t ever put Lecithin in a product unless you have absolutely no choice.

… has to be the best advice I have ever received.  Just highlighting it in case it helps anyone else.  I will let you know how I get on at the manufacturers.  Thanks for all your help and support, it is much appreciated.

Just to add, please go easy on small businesses such as mine.  We don’t all have big budgets to outsource everything.  We are just doing our best, some of us to support a family, as I am.  

[GabyD]

@Mark, I would agree with you in theory. I think you are in the US where things are better.  I am in Australia where getting anything done is a nightmare.  I have been let down so many times which is why I ended up doing it myself!

[GabyD]

Sadly Mark, I think you’re right. Given that I have invested everything I had into this business I probably have no choice but to sell up. 

Thanks for all your help, I wish I had found this site earlier.

[GabyD]

Thanks Perry. I have learned A LOT from this experience. I just need to find a way to come out of it. I am not sure what to do now. The first company, the one who demanded we use a natural preservative, are asking for their money back. They paid a $10k deposit. I have spent $16k on formulators, ingredients, etc. I just don’t know what to do.

[GabyD]

@Mark, I was advised by a Senior Chemist at the Manufacturers that it would be completely fine. I trusted them.

[GabyD]

OK, just to clarify some of the detail, this is what happened…

Dec 2017:
I undertook a Cosmetic Chemistry course with a view to launching my own skincare range. I have a science degree and an MBA and a background in retail. 

May 2018:
I approached a cosmetic chemist “Carol” and asked her to formulate an organic palm oil-free emulsion for me. She is well-qualified and teaches this subject. She came up with the recipe above with Microcare DB as the only preservative. We made the samples and ran PET and Stability. It passed. 

July 2018:
I received an order for a large quantity of skin cream, based on this formula. Unfortunately, the client did not want MDB so we switched to Potassium Sorbate & Sodium Benzoate. Ran PET & Stability again. All good. 

Sep 2018:
I was unable to find a manufacturer to make the cream within a time frame and at an MOQ that worked for me, so I decided to grow upon my limited knowledge and make it myself. By now, Carol the Chemist had started ghosting me and to this day I have no idea why. She ignored my increasingly desperate emails and then phonecalls, however I noticed she still posted on Instagram so was obviously fine. I have since discovered that she has form for this kind of behaviour. 

Feb 2019:
I received another large order based on the original samples we sent out. I now had two very large orders to fulfill.

March 2019:
I retained the services of another cosmetic chemist “Rachel” to review our formulas and formulate some more products for us. She advised that as we were using Potassium Sorbate and Sodium Benzoate, that we should switch to Microcare SB as it is basically the same. We got samples from the manufacturers and all was fine. The pH at this time was 3.65-3.95, as advised by Carol.

April 2019:
Bought a 25 kg pail of MSB. As the samples had been fine we proceeded to scale up to 60 kg. From that batch, we experienced the skin burning. I approached the manufacturers who told me to bring the pH up to 5.8. We did. All looked good, so made another 60 kg.  All went mouldy.

July 2019:
The company who placed the second order have pulled out and the company who placed the first order are now demanding their deposit back. Right now, I need a miracle.

I just want to add that I am hugely grateful for the support and expertise on this forum and I hope that my experiences can help others.

Gaby

[GabyD]

Thanks Mark and Perry. That all makes sense. The formula was done by a professional chemist. I then employed another chemist when the first chemist when AWOL (another story!). I have also been in constant contact with one of the preservative manufacturer’s senior chemists. So this whole process has been managed by people far more experienced than me. 

However, it seems that neither really understood what was going on. For that reason, I am very grateful to this site.

[GabyD]

… and sure, it’s a bigger issue, but both are issues that need addressing. Which is why I am here seeking help. If you have any constructive advice with regard to these issues, I would be very open to hearing it. 

[GabyD]

Pharma, I don’t produce cosmetics for third parties. I make it and sell it.

[GabyD]

I still don’t understand why we didn’t have the burning problem with the sample, only with the full pail. And it was bad. I am happy to PM some pictures if anybody is interested.

[GabyD]

Sorry Mark, just to clarify, when we did the PET the pH for all our products was between 3.65-3.95. It was only when we had the burning problem with the SB that the manufacturers told us the pH was too low and that we should raise it to 5.8. At which point the mould appeared.

[GabyD]

Oh, also:

- Add Naticide 0.6%.

[GabyD]

OK, so given your advice, I will do this:

- Switch to a different preservative (Benzyl Alcohol in this case)
- Ditch the Aloe Vera
- Ditch the Soya Lecithin
- Bring the pH down to <5.

Is that looking better? Thanks.

[GabyD]

Thanks Mark. 

[GabyD]

So it could be the Aloe Vera, Tara Gum or Lecithin causing the mould. I can take out Aloe Vera and Lecithin and I might be able to switch to Xanthan Gum.

Any ideas why the MSB was causing burning to the skin previously? 

I need to get to the bottom of this.  The loss for me is >$100k and we are a small business so pretty devastating really.

[GabyD]

It was the manufacturers who told me to get the pH to 5.8. Previously it was 3.65-3.95 and they claimed this was the reason for the skin burning (it wasn’t).  

The emulsifier is Olivoyl Hydrolyzed Wheat Protein, Cetearyl Alcohol, Glyceryl Oleate, Glyceryl Stearate, Potassium Hydroxide, Potassium Sorbate, Sodium Benzoate.

Yes, we did the PET through a respected lab in the UK.