[emma1985]

Try adding water last if possible. Pre-disperse surfactants im glycerin. Don’t pour the water from a high height and break the water’s fall with something (like a spatula.) Not sure if this helps, sorry.

[emma1985]

I just tried it again and it has literally no flavor that I can detect. ???? I suspect if anything will impart flavor it will be the plant oils.

[emma1985]

No, it’s incredibly smooth. Just like lip gloss but so much less sticky.

Thank you so much. 

Do you think it’s better to skip the additional Glycerin then?

[emma1985]

Thank you so much Bill. Question, would you say Castor Wax is particularly good for stick products, and particularly different from other hydrogenated oils like Olive Wax (Oliwax,) Almond Wax, etc?

[emma1985]

Thank you both so much for responding.

I played with different concentrations of Candellila and Stearic and was actually pretty pleasantly surprised. I hadn’t used Candellila in a while and whatever I did before, the formulation always came out grainy. This time I have no graininess.

I’m planning on ordering some Olive Wax (not really a wax) because I’ve heard its softness and creaminess is comparable to Beeswax, whereas Candellila, Carnauba and even Rice Bran are considered very hard. 

I’d like to try Sunflower Wax, but it seems like there’s some sort of shortage or something, as it’s hard to obtain and quite expensive.

And ngarayeva, I could not agree more about anhydrous products being very tricky. Emulsions are an absolute breeze comparatively.

Thanks again!

[emma1985]

I had a similar experience when I used Sodium Bicarbonate to adjust pH in my Lactic Acid mask that contains Pink Kaolin.

I had much better results using Triethanolamine, are you using Sodium Bicarbonate by any chance?

I still get a bit of the scent though, so I only use 1-2% clay.

There are tons of commercial products on the market that contain AHAs and clay, so I don’t think there’s anything fundamentally wrong with combining them. But I could be wrong.

[emma1985]

I recommend Crothix for thickening liquid cleansers. So much nicer than Xanthan, and you only need 2% max. It’s a bit expensive though.

Sepimax Zen can work as well, depending on the type of surfactants you’re using (it’s anionic.)

[emma1985]

Thank you. The UL Prospector article was helpful, I took some screenshots.

I’ve actually worked extensively with Candellila and Carnauba in anhydrous products. I experienced graininess and syneresis with both. 

Other than the graininess and syneresis though, I really liked them (lol.) I love how they create glossy products and impart a really lightweight oil layer on the skin (not waxy in my experience.)

I will take your advice and play around with all.

Tonight I was actually thinking about doing some tests with a C wax and Stearic Acid. However I don’t think I’ve seen Stearic used much in stick products, is there any reason for this? (Keep in mind I’m not making lipstick.) ????????

[emma1985]

Thank you, Sincityfire!

Paprik, I’m interested in this question as well. Hopefully we get a response from Perry.

[emma1985]

There’s some information here about polarity. Based on the information in this thread, you might be able to combine Dimethicone and Cyclomethicone with Peanut Oil, Almond Oil, Jojoba Oil, Avocado Oil, Sunflower Oil, possibly Olive Oil.

Dimethicone and Cyclomethicone are nonpolar, and so are the aforementioned plant oils, whereas C12-15 AB is polar.

https://chemistscorner.com/cosmeticsciencetalk/discussion/355/polarity-of-cosmetic-oils

[emma1985]

I think the issue here is polarity.

Have you tried finding a list of lipids by polarity? You can search, “chemist corner forum, polarity.”

Polar lipids won’t mix with nonpolar lipids.

If you want to use plant oils in your formulation, I would pick a plant oil that matches the polarity of Dimethicone and Cyclomethicone. 

I myself have experienced separation when combining plant oils with cyclomethicone (I believe it was Apricot.)

Can you clarify what you did to get the thick creamy layer? That sounds interesting.. You combined premixed Dimethicone and Cyclomethicone with  C12-15 Alkyl Benzoate?

[emma1985]

Also, I think Azelaic Acid is FDA approved for rosacea, so I was surprised that it didn’t have as much of an anti-inflammatory benefit for me.

[emma1985]

Thanks Perry.

I reckon you’re right, I’m just surprised because I’ve used so many other products with Dimethicone and I formulate with Dimethicone.

LRP has another fantastic cream, it’s called the Lipikar Balm. It also contains Dimethicone as the 4th ingredient. It’s extremely moisturizing but not nearly as redness reducing.

I was thinking maybe the minerals are contributing to redness reduction.

Alternatively, I was thinking the madecassoside may be contributing to its effectiveness. Madecassoside and other Centella Asiatia terpinoids are used extensively in Korean skincare products (Asiaticoside, Asiatic Acid, etc.)

LRP does use “thermal water” in their formulations but that could just be a gimmick thing.

Anyway, thanks for the response!

[emma1985]

I use 0.3% and, often, no other fragrance ingredients and yes the smell absolutely comes through.

[emma1985]

I avoid them almost entirely (I only use Blue Tansy in one of my products, mostly for color.)

Let’s just say they are “high risk.”

You have to be very careful. The citrus essential oils can be phototoxic, and for example, lavender essential oil has been found to be cytotoxic. 

You have to have a really reliable supplier if you’re going to use essential oils, and you have to be careful in your handling of them as well. You should never have skin contact with 100% essential oil, for example.

[emma1985]

Batoul said:

Thanks @emma1985 ????
I will try Glyceryl oleate.
I read about it and found another material, PCA Glyceryl oleate. Do you have information about this material? And which one is better for shampoo formulation PCA Glyceryl Oleate or Glyceryl Oleate?

I apologize, I’m not familiar with PCA Glyceryl Oleate. I hope one of the experts here can chime in.

[emma1985]

I don’t like fake butters either. Almost always they use hydrogenated soy or vegetable oil, occasionally you’ll get lucky and find one with Shea Butter with a bit of carrier oil added (for example, Cranberry Butter, Avocado Butter, Hemp Butter etc) but the overwhelming majority of them contain hydrogenated oil. It does not look good on an ingredients list. 

[emma1985]

I’ve had to switch the 500 from 350 because I can’t find 350 in stock. Haven’t tried 500 yet but my understanding is higher cps is actually more effective at delivering the properties that we look for in silicones (soaping prevention, increased play time and glide, etc.) I could be wrong though. 

[emma1985]

If you are in the US Making Cosmetics has PEG-7 Glyceryl Cocoate. That being said I also love Glyceryl Oleate. 

[emma1985]

Rockstargirl said:

emma1985 said:

It’s extremely expensive. (And not really evidence based.) You would have to charge so much for it (if you’re selling.)

If you haven’t, try searching under the name “Granactive Retinoid.” Sometimes it’s called that. 

Is it because it’s newer? (Not really evidence based) or just not good outcomes?

Yes it’s very new. When I looked into it last year the only existing research was conducted by the manufacturer.

[emma1985]

lwere said:

I make a body lotion but I’m a newbie. I am looking for consistency in texture each time I make it. I would also like it to be very white and very smooth. I find that my consistency is not consistent. 

I found that it looks thicker and whiter when I add microwax. Using an overhead lab stirrer and an immersion blender produce different consistencies. 

What are the tricks and methodologies you all use to ensure a cohesive, smooth texture in your emulsions? Are there any tricks? Procedures - order of manufacturing process? Timing and speed of stirring? Ingredients? Do you stir for a standard amount of time? I will appreciate input on this.

What’s microwax?

In my experience the emulsifier makes a huge difference in how white the emulsion turns out. I love super white emulsions so I use Montanov L and Glyceryl Stearate PEG 100 Stearate a lot. High shear creates whiter emulsions as well.

You should always use an immersion blender, followed by slow stirring either by hand or with the overhead stirrer.

Some emulsifiers don’t like a lot of shear so adjust as needed.

My biggest thing when I was new was air bubbles. 

I’ve found that limiting turbulence as much as possible reduces air bubbles and creates smooth emulsions.

In practice, this means using my immersion blender on low speed when I first combine phases before the emulsion has started gaining viscosity. Then as the emulsion thickens, increase the speed. 

On the flip side, you don’t want to blend too much when the product is at full viscosity either, because that also can introduce pockets of air. This is why I use an overhead stirrer at this stage. I think overhead stirrer works better than hand stirring at this stage. 

[emma1985]

MarkBroussard said:

This is a cool concept, but in my experience, is not suitable for a commercial product.  The process to form the gel is tedious and it does not work with all carrier oils … works better with saturated oils, not so goog with unsaturated oils.  Generally, the gels are not heat stable. Next.

Agree completely, I’m discontinuing the one product in my line that uses Sapogel because I just can’t accommodate the production time.

[emma1985]

mikeylamar said:

emma1985 said:

No other antioxidants are evidence based for stabilizing C as far as I know.

You don’t really have to make an emulsion, though.

You can use a small amount of Polysorbate, or even something like Olivem 300 to solubilize a small amount of Vitamin E (in Vitamin C serums, E is used at 0.5% or 1%.)

The bigger problem is Ferulic Acid. In my experience it’s almost impossible to solubilize. This is why I’ve personally given up on DIY Vitamin C. I buy commercial formulations that stay stable/unoxidized/effective for a stunning amount of time (the ones I use limit water content and switch out large quantities of water for glycols. That’s the trick.) 

So I probably wont have any luck with plant extracts such as green tea extract, rosemary extract or ginger extract?

What percentage of Vitamin C are you using? If you’re using anything more than 10% (it’s evidence based at 15-20%) you’ll need to raise the pH, not lower it. I use Triethanolamine in my Lactic Acid serum. Aim for 3.5, it’s the least irritating while simultaneously effective and bioavailable. I would not go over 3.5.

 My understanding is green tea extract is almost impossible ro stabilize in cosmetic formulations. 

If you’re making it weekly, especially if you’re reducing water content a bit by replacing water with glycols (if it’s for personal use and you’re not that worried about elegance I would do 10% Glycerin,) then it’ll be fine without another antioxidant.

Give it a try for one week. You’ll know it’s oxidizing if it starts turning yellow.

Sorry for double post.

[emma1985]

abierose said:

@Microformulation is right. Personally the only butter that I’ve tried that I wouldn’t classify as greasy would be Illipe butter. Shea, Mango, Cocao, Kokum, Cupuacu, Coconut…all feel greasy to me but I do still use some of these butters occasionallybut at very small amounts…like less than 1%…. Babassu is a very nice butter also but can be slightly greasy too. Just my humble opinion ????

As @Charlene pointed out, the other elements in your formula can/will dictate the end feel.

I love Babassu so so much. ❤️

[emma1985]

The monk is 30 years older than the Native American woman. Wear sunscreen folks. If you don’t care about visible aging, wear it to protect your skin from skin cancer, which, contrary to popular belief, can be fatal!!