[Doreen]

p.s. The skinfeel was absolutely lovely. An oily phase of about 10-12% (don’t have the formula here so don’t remember precisely) with I believe Miglyol 829 and Miglyol Coco 810 and a bit of MM, Aristoflex Silk.

It had a matte (despite the MM) fluffy, mousse-like to whipped cream appearance.

[Doreen]

@ngarayeva001
No idea. Just made a simple O/W with it.

[Doreen]

You’re welcome 🙂

[Doreen]

I also have a favour for ‘ye good olde’ reliable combo of GMS + PEG-100 stearate.
Recently I found the combination of the w/o methyl glucose sesquistearate with o/w PEG-20 methyl glucose sesquistearate to be very nice. Only disadvantage is the aeration after high shear which is nearly impossible to get out with slow stirring.

ngarayeva001 said:

Interesting approach. I can’t put my head around SLES (Coco-glucoside, decyl glucoside, any other lathery surfactant) in leave in products. I know that all emulsifiers are surfactants, and I probably have no scientific point here. (…)

It’s very common in pharmaceutical creams, e.g. SLS, tweens, spans.
Probably because these have been thoroughly tested for interactions with pharmaceutical actives, plus they’re cheap and stable.
Usually the creams are named after their emulsifier (brand) name.
This is the standardized formula for ‘Lanette I cream’ for example (here in NL):

15% Cetearyl Alcohol + SLS (Lanette W)

20% Decyl Oleate (Cetiol V)

4% Sorbitol 70% non cryst.

0,15% sorbic acid

aqua purificata ad 100

It’s thick, ‘soaps’ and doesn’t spread easily. I hate (indifferent) pharm creams. They’re easy to make, but don’t give a pleasant skinfeel to say the least.

[Doreen]

@ngarayeva001
A DIY supplier here (mainly for soapmakers) stocks Germaben (you can also request documents like CoA, MSDS etc). Above right you can select the English flag to have the whole site translated.
Besides Germaben they also sell Phenonip, which is odd because they’re on the natural/green/eco etc. side.
They don’t have a standardized shipping price list for abroad, so I have just sent them a mail about it, I’ll let you know when I get an answer.
Hopefully this could be a cheaper solution for you!

[Doreen]

ngarayeva001 said:

(…) I don’t see anything in this lotion to assume the pH is at a some extreme. (…)

You use both an acid and a strong base (at what concentration btw?) to adjust the pH while you didn’t use a pH meter for this emulsion.
I know from bad pH strips that it’s more difficult to see if it’s too acidic than too alkaline (if it’s neutral to alkaline you get a green/blue hue quite fast), but acidic… it’s all in the orange hues, which can be an enormous difference, as I found out with my meter (the visible difference within the hues are nearly undetectable at times). That emulsion might have been 2.4 while the strip read between 3 or 6 (in the test I performed that I mentioned earlier).

[Doreen]

Ah ok! Understood! :+1: :smiley:

Not to be purposely annoying, but sometimes there can be so many factors and especially because I don’t see anything in particular in your formula that might cause it. Apart from maybe the fragrance, but maybe the 0.3% being on the high side is my own personal experience, I’m not sure!
Your formula looks fine to me!

I used to have a ‘pocket’ pH meter like the one you had too, but because it was 1. not steady with emulsions and 2. a real pain to clean (and the delicate probes can’t be sanitized with alcohols or H202), so they can become a source of contamination.

A method to avoid contamination by pH probe could be to take ‘samples’ of your emulsion (when it’s fully finished) and throw those away after it has been in contact with the meter, but then you can’t adjust the emulsion no more (you’ll get 100+% if you do (unless it’s a nihil drop or two), and if you take samples before the emulsion is finished, the levels of the used substances aren’t correct anymore.)

[Doreen]

Regarding pH strips:
I know at most DIY sites you don’t have a lot of choice in pH strips.
But the best choice is a good brand (e.g. Merck) and those within a ‘small usage width’ (instead of 1-14, for example 3.8-5.4, the range where you expect your product to be in. Not that the 1-14 strips can’t be used, these have more control colours, usually 3) Example source (It’s a Dutch site, but the images can be more *coughs* helpful than my descriptions )
Of course a good meter is always better, but I know those with probes dedicated for emulsions, are expensive.

A tip: the pH meter that’s sold on Lotioncrafter (if it is still the Extech 101) is quite good and the probe is very easy to clean.
You really don’t need a meter that’s as precise as those used in pharmaceutical labs.
(But the pH strips sold in most DIY shops you can’t distinguish a pH 2 from a pH 6. It’s both ‘orange-y’ and hardly a difference in hue. I bought these once for fun on AliExpress and tested with pH meter. When the meter read 2.4, the orange hue was between 3 and 6!).
Like these: 

[Doreen]

@MarkBroussard
Thanks! :blush:
*sigh of relief*
I will totally ignore this whole ingredient then. Wasted time!

[Doreen]

Personally I find 0.3% fragrance quite a lot for a facial cream.

I know you don’t perform microbial tests and I don’t know how your methods are regarding sanitizing, packaging etc., but can you be absolutely sure that it isn’t microbe-related?
No preservative is fail proof under any circumstance, even when obvious bugfood is absent.

Is the tingling on the eyelid skin or also in the eye?
I know that many creams have the tendency to ‘travel’ to the eyes and especially sunscreens are notorious for eye irritation when used too close to the eyes. I always have about 1 cm space below/above the eye where I don’t apply.

If I remember correctly you don’t use a pH meter for emulsions, but strips.
Can you be absolutely sure that your pH is 6?
I know there is quality difference in pH strips, but these really aren’t the best for pH testing.

Regarding skin sensitivity and skin peels.
Maybe your facial skin can withstand quite a low pH, but skin around the eyes is way more sensitive.

[Doreen]

@MarkBroussard
Thanks for the tip! :+1:

[Doreen]

@Pharma @MarkBroussard
Thanks guys! 
If I use preservatives like Dermosoft 1388 or Euxyl PE 9010 I always pair it up with glyceryl caprylate or caprylyl glycol at 0.3% (GMCY and Octiol: the German DIY supplier I order from stocks about everything from Dr. Straetmans!)
Just like you, I always perform the hurdle technique. When I use e.g. Germaben II or Liquid Germall Plus just not so extensive. Although no matter the type of preservative, I always work accordingly to GMP rules for as much that is possible in an amateur home ‘lab’ (aka our den).

I’m not particularly fond of rose scents, but I guess at a level of 0.5-0.75%, as Mark mentions, it won’t pose much of a problem.

I’ll give the links a thorough read, Pharma. Thanks a lot!

[Doreen]

@MarkBroussard
Thanks for replying so quickly!
I automatically assumed it’s action would be mainly antibacterial, but it’s nice to see that it is particularly active against yeast and mold.
No need to pair it up with parabens then.

[Doreen]

I read it too, it’s for Multiple Sclerosis, right? Way to go, Perry! :+1:
Wishing you good luck this weekend (are you juggling and cycling at the same time or is that only when you’re running? )
Kidding aside. Of course I will donate and wish you all the best!

[Doreen]

ngarayeva001 said:

(…) Some homecrafters know  more about formulating than chemists.  

Chemistry is such a broad field/there are so many fields within chemistry. Do you mean a cosmetic chemist in particular?
I can’t imagine a homecrafter having more substantial knowledge of formulating than a cosmetic chemist.
I have to agree with @Microformulation that there is a lot of overestimation of abilities and knowledge amongst homecrafters in general. I have witnessed it in several Facebook groups when I still had a Facebook account.
I also find the saying @MarkBroussard mentions that ‘you don’t even know what you don’t know’ a very good one. It’s hard to explain how much more there is to a certain subject and how very complex the matter is when a person only thinks in limited and superficial terms about it. Because they simply haven’t had to deal with/have no knowledge of those particular things that make it more complex.
(I find this very hard to explain properly, especially in English, but I hope I’m a bit understandable.)

On the other hand, there are certainly professionals who underestimate the abilities and knowledge of homecrafters and even look down on them, or automatically assume they have no scientific background.
I totally agree with @Perry by setting a low threshold to be able to join this forum. Every person has the right to ask questions here, not only professionals. For the latter is a special group, or so I have heard.
I think it’s rude to approach a person who admits that he/she is a newbie with not much experience c.q. knowledge with bitter sneers and snarky remarks.
If the willingness to help is absent then why participate on this forum anyway?
And with help I don’t only mean showing off one’s intellect about a certain subject or only reply when someone is wrong about something, but to give practical help. Several professionals here are so generous in doing that, it’s commendable.

@MarkBroussard
I’m not a pharmacist. Pharmacists require a Pharm.D. I have a BPharm degree in Pharmaceutical Consultancy.

[Doreen]

@ngarayeva001
Well done! I hope you can achieve exactly the right hue for your skin!
It’s a pain to find the exact right colour, regardless of the brand. It’s almost always too dark for me, or even too light so I look either ill or like Morticia from the Addam’s Family (if I wore a black wig too). Or it has too much of a yellow undertone so I look like an alcoholic with liver cirrhosis. :confused:
And I’m done with buying several hues and mix them. What a hassle.

I’ve recently bought Lancôme Teint Idole Ultra Wear (Beige Porcelaine) and this is one of the best so far.
(And I won’t even try something like La Prairie as I’m not willing to spend more than 200 euros per 30 ml :dizzy: )

[Doreen]

Microformulation said:

It does lead to faster dissolution. It was standard practice in several manufacturers I worked at.

It sounded a bit unnecessary to me. But I understand it can be handy. Just like the use of a mortar might sound cumbersome to others.

Regardless, having been trained in both Compounding Pharmacy and Formulation (different evolutions), a Mortar and Pestle is hardly the best tool.

No offence but this sounds a bit pedantic. I think we all know those are different. I don’t think it’s necessary to mention whatever training to posit your opinion about the relevance of i.a. mortars.
I hope I don’t have to mention my BPharm degree every time I have a related opinion or question.

In some cases I find a mortar an ideal solution, like the reason I described in my previous reply. And of course I produce relatively small batches. Mortars in pharmacies are usually also only used for ad hoc preparations, not huge stock preparations.

[Doreen]

@Microformulation
So basically you just use the mortar for pulverizing salt.
Isn’t a salt curve done with just NaCl? It dissolves quick without grinding.
How much time do you actually gain by that? I mean you’ll have more dishes to do in the end.

[Doreen]

Pharma said:

Mortar and pestle are sufficient when mixing cream A with active B or when making old-school ointments which are usually of lamellar structure/high viscosity oil phase with fairly high amounts of wax, cetyl stearate, cetearyl alcohol, and/or hydrogenated peanut oil or contain solids such as zinc oxide. They’re useless for more up to date emulsions which require high shear or are of lower viscosity.

True. I use the mortar+pestle mostly for thick w/o, but also o/w emulsions without polymers, rarely an ointment and for dispersion.
(With dispersion I mean for example a preservative in the cool down (like formaldehyde releasers), which is a relatively small amount, to get it a 100% homogenous in a thick cream, I use the mortar. Covering the mortar with emulsion, so there won’t be adhesion of active to mortar surface, ‘packing in’ the active with a same small amount of emulsion, mixing same amount with same amount until all of the emulsion is used. The packing in method is not only to prevent loss of active, but in case of pigments, not getting the mortar discoloured. I think @Pharma and @em88 will recognize these methods immediately, right? (Please don’t mind my childlike English descriptions, I don’t know the proper pharmacy jargon translations in English).

For the ‘up to date’ emulsions I use 250-1000 ml beakers, but I still use the mortar/poker cards then (the beakers are relatively low in size). 😉

Edited some typos.

[Doreen]

@Pharma
I still use them! I’ve got a deck of 100% plastic poker cards for this reason. 😀
I’m not superstitious, but when I used the Joker last week, my emulsion failed! (Well, the emulsion itself was fine but I accidentally knocked over the mortar.) :joy: :joy:

[Doreen]

@Pharma
Nice to read I’m not the only one using a mortar and pestle (+ steel spatula and mortar cards?)  

@Perry
(…)I’d still recommend working with a formulator who has a science background over one who doesn’t. (…)

Totally agree!

[Doreen]

Cst4Ms4Tmps4 said:

 Pre-ground (powdered) Oats is very expensive.

??
It’s just oat flour!

[Doreen]

@ngarayeva001
What type of package do you use?
I use airless pumps an haven’t had discoloration at all.

[Doreen]

MarkBroussard said:

It is my preferred form of Vitamin C to use in formulations.

I agree. And it’s so easy to work with!

[Doreen]

@MJL
No problem at all, you’re welcome!