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is panthenol COSMOS approved ?

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Hi,

no, it is not accepted in organic certification, so I have to use this one ::smile: 

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Hello @Rockstargirl , thanks for the advice !

Any group in particular you would recommend ? I am looking for a group where there would be some professionnals, not just DIYers

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@Cafe33

This is an issue with improper binding. Using fine powdered
surfactant with a wetting agent - water in CAPB for example will resolve
“air pockets and crumbly texture”. Binder is usually used at 4-6%. Use
too little and it crumbles. Use too much and it stays wet and soft.

I have no experience with wetting agent, but trying to make sense of your comment: What I understand is that it could help to add a wetting agent (emulsifier with HLB value around 7-9). If I guess well, that would help the binder (water at 4-6%) “adhere” to the solid surfactant by reducing its surface tension correct?

I have for example at my disposal sodium stearoyl lactylate which is a water soluble emulsifier with HLB 8.3

I have also Olivem 1000 (Cetearyl olivate, Sorbitan olivate) HLB 8-9 and Xyliance (Cetearyl wheat straw glycosides, cetearyl alcohol) HLB 8

But these two are oil soluble, it would not be a good choice no ?

Look at Sodium Lactate/Sodium Chloride and what they can do in Syndet Bars.

I have added sodium lactate (ca 60%) @1%, I could not say I saw improvement. But I will look into the science of this, thanks

Yes, adding an emulsifier is a great idea. I have used BTMS, Polawax,
Lanette N, Glyceryl Stearate with great success in these types of bars.
BTMS is best for a light conditioning shampoo.

I am glad to see that cationic emulsifier (BTMS) works and does not disturb the structure (I was not sure the positive charge would do well in presence of the main anionic surfactant). I wish to add Brassica Alcohol (and) Brassicyl Valinate Esylate for its conditioning properties.

Different powders compact differently. I certainly don’t believe that
these types of starches and clays will help you create a compact
mixture.

I see, I’ll stop playing with them for now, plus they may not be that much necessary once I get the powdered surfactant.

Glucosides weaken the structure of the bar. I don’t know why, but
that has been my experience (even at 2%) The bar will snap in half even
after a few uses.

Well, I was already convinced about removing it, I will do so. Thanks for the feedback !

Have you tried with sodium cocoyl glutamate, either as main surfactant in powder form, or as your secondary in dilution, does it work well ?

Thank you very much overall for our exchange, it gives me new perspectives for development, I was a bit reaching a dead end without new ideas and information, now I have a lot of work ahead

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@Pharma thanks a lot for the clarification

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Hello @Cafe33,

Thanks a lot to giving some hints, I appreciate it.

Yes indeed, I hope that the powder form will be already a big plus.

My guess is that I have two main issues:

1. my compacting process: For now it is very manual and not optimized at all, I think it leaves air pocket which leads to a crumbly texture.

2. The chemical bonds: I think, if the bar wears off so much is that it does not have enough internal cohesion to resist to the surface attraction/tear (when you leave it on a surface while wet)

For point No. 2, I will try if adding some emulsifiers help in this ? after all, I have water loving molecules mixed with lipophilic compounds. Emulsifier does not sound so bad to me to hold them together, no ?

For point No.1: I am a bit confused. I agree with you to do simple formula to develop a good base, but in this case I though that the purpose of the clay or starch was to enhance the compacting step (I guess the fine powder fills the small wholes). So I understand that you say it is not a must to develop a good base already, isn’t it?

For liquid surfactant (like CAPB), I am using coco glucoside, in small amount, like 4%. I was thinking to take that off. I added it to make a milder synergy with SCS, but I wonder if it does not make the product more sticky in a way, or help in any way at all… DO you think this is crucial ? I mean, if this is for the water content, I can add the water alone.

I am going to go read that book, chapter 4

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Hello all,

@ozgirl, I will receive soon the SCS in powder form, I will try that ::smile: 

@Pharma Which one worked best in a solid soap bar ? pretty please ?

I am not equipped with something to measure RH unfortunately. If I understand your point about starch, the finer the grain is, the more susceptible it is to adsorb water (more surface area)

So far I have stayed away from clays because of their reputation to be hard to preserve. But it seems to me that you are implying this would be the best choice here (less batch to batch variation) ?

@Cafe33 it is good to hear from your experience. Like you, I am new to formulation. But unlike you, I have zero experience in compressed solid products. Would you be so kind to give me a hint ? please please

I have done many trials. I am happy with the effect on the hair, the cleaning and all, now I am trying to get a good cohesion within the bar. So far it tends to stick to the surface you put it on, and then you loose some product when you pick it up

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Thank you @Perry for this big picture feedback

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Hi @Perry,

THank you for your reply. Yes indeed I have to be more patient, I agree.

I did not really have the expectation to get a nice scientific review that compares them all together according to the same protocol, but since I have put different product “type”, clay vs starch for example, I thought maybe some general trend would  be obvious for some of you.

Like for example: “clays are way more hygroscopic than corn starch”

From the publication you shared, correct me if i’m wrong, but I understand that the flowability of the powder impacts the compacting process and for me, the more flowable it is, the better.

At least now if I see studies on the flowability on starch, i could relate to it a bit.

Thanks.

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Nope ? no comment ? maybe I put it in the wrong section …. 😐

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Hello @Imosca,

One question I meant to ask. I learnt that we normally do not mix anionic surfactant with cationic ones. But here it seems to be fine. Do you confirm it is ok in this type of formula to mix all sorts of surfactant ? In my case I will have anionic (SCS), non ionic (coco glucoside) and cationic (Emulsense: Brassicyl Isoleucinate Esylate).

My guess is that since they are not part of a solution, it should be fine. But since there is some water content in the formula (like 4-7%), so I guess some get part of a solution and hence precipitate (so they become inactive) ?

Thank you, have a great day !

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In
my case the raw material are the roots, it is what is called a total extract (I
think it relate to the process pressure, here I think total is for high
pressure)

Here is what the
supplier documents says:

0,15 -0,21 % total carotenes calculated as
beta-carotene corresponding to 2500 - 3500 i.U. provitamin A, alpha, beta-, gamma-, delta-, epsilon-carotene in
natural isomerical distribution, lycopine, traces of essential and fatty
oil, lipophilic flavones, jojoba oil.

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@tinas check out Polyglyceryl-4 oleate

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Hello Monique,

I do not see any problem why you could not put an emulsifier like BTMS (which  one?) in an anhydrous balm.

And for preservation you do not have water activity, so as long as there is no risk for your product to be in contact with water (even by consumer mistake), you do not need one necessarily.

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Thank you @Perry, but I am in Europe, and not planning to play with synthetic colorant. I’ll try my best with the natural ones 🙂

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Hello
@Imosca,

I read your comment on
Agate’s thread and it was interesting to read that SCS would be more energy
efficient than SLS since you do not have to purify the lauric fraction.

 I have the same
experience as you for natural colorant, I found them not stable. So far carrot
extract seems to be stable, I use it in other products as well, but also I cannot
say I run proper stability test, it is more of personal observation over few
weeks, sometimes months. Sometimes I put some sample at 40/50°C also. But then
I am stuck with orange ! Well, I have hope I can play with the green from
tamanu oil, I love that shade of green. Maybe play one day with blue hue of chamazulene.

Homogeneity:

SCS is found only in
beads right ? or can I find it as a smaller size or powder ? The current one I
have is about 1mm in diameter.

I understand your
point regarding the heterogeneity in terms of polar affinity. To make it
better, since the main surfactant is high HLB, I should probably favor a larger
water phase rather than a large oil phase isn’t it ? I will test this theory by
making two simple formulas (6 ingredients): one with high oil phase, one with larger water
phase

 

Very interesting your
comment on hydration water. I was not familiar with the concept, but I totally
get it now.

 So today: doing two
batches to test the knew knowledge you taught me

I’ll post again if you
are interested by the results. Thanks a ton again !

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Hello Agate,

Thanks for pointing that out, the drying time. It will surely help. At least, it cannot hurt ::smile: 

and thanks for the feedback on the sodium cocoyl glutamate since I never used it, im glad to hear from you that it is giving good hair feel and better than coco glucoside. I will buy some next time I purchase ingredient

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I feel very honored
that you are taking some of your time to answer to me in great depth. I really
appreciate a lot. I am very detailed oriented and very keen on understanding
the science that is at play here to help me further master the formula and process.
So your answers look just amazing to me

Here are my comments:

Surfactant choice:

My aim is to have a
blend of surfactant that are accepted by organic certification body. If I am
not wrong, SCS along with sodium lauryl sulfate are the only solid ones that are
accepted. But I do not have access to sodium lauryl sulfate right now that is
why I stick with SCS. Plus, I do not know if blending sodium lauryl sulfate with
SCS would be beneficial.

Secondary surfactant: I
was under the impression that Coco glucoside was on the softer side amongst
surfactants. Would lauryl glucoside be softer? (Aren’t long chain surfactants
softer than the short chained ones ?). I could also have access to sodium
cocoyl glutanate or Disodium/Sodium Cocoyl Glutamate, but I do not know how
this one compare to the others?

Preferential channel/fat
solidification: I understand what you are saying here, but I am not 100% sure
this is what is happening. I think I have both type of samples, some got
crumbly, but some feels like they get harder with use. So I am curious, what
may be the other reason, you seemed to have something in mind ?

But if this is what’s
happening, and given the fact that I probably cannot change the process in a
way that does a quick cooling to have homogenous fats in an amorphous state. What
can I do better here? Reduce or remove the virgin oils/butter in favor of the
fatty alcohol?

 Choice of fatty
matter: I thought cocoa butter will help in hardening my bar and aso be good for
the hair, isn’t stearic acid supposed to be a bit conditionning?

I understand fatty
alcohol would be more effective that way. But I would like to incorporate
virgin oils/butter in my product. Noted for the comedogenicity, I thought it was
not critical for hair and scalp.

 Carrot extract: this
is to color the product. I found that any colored vegetal powder, like some
ayurvedic plants, or even clay, tend to not be stable and the product turns to
an ugly brown after use. I found that coloring the oil fraction with that
extract is more stable.

 Vitamine E: I have
heard a lot that vitamine E can be pro-oxydizing if added in too large
quantity, but I am a bit shooting in the dark here, trying anything between
0.25 to 1% max usually. I thought up to 1% was still safe. I will reduce the amount
then. Just to make sure, the percentage you proposed are based on my 70% ca
concentration or you talk in term of active matter ?

 pH adjustment:

To determine the amount,
it has just been trial and errors, I have not done it the way you do. But I
have well understood it I think and I will test this protocol. I guess I should
aim for a 4 – 5.5

 Stickiness: I
understand your point for unmolding, I’ll try that. But the other problem is
that the bar would stick to the surface you depose it on (in your shower), and
when you next pick it up, some material gets ripped off. Would reducing the amount
of hygroscopic material would help reduce this problem?

 Preservation:

I get your point, but
if I try to be critic here, wouldn’t the preservative preserve only the “inside”
of the product, and here the main exposure is the water that will surround the
bar. So would that be any effective against this risk here? Note that I would
be using naturally derived preservative which may be a little less effective
maybe than some synthetic ones.

 Reformulating from
scratch: I agree with you, I have been doing little changes for some time on
this already complex formula without much success. I need a fresh start.

I do not think I
understand fully the following: “and by not using coarse materials, you won’t
need a binder, as the amount of water during your manufacturing will be enough
to cement everything together”

What is the coarse
material you are refering to? my surfactants?

 Also, can you help me
understand how the water present in the process, which will then eventually
evaporate (will all of it evaporates given enough time ? my guess would be NO
since we have hygroscopic material and the surfactant which is mainly
hydrophilic) helps in binding the whole thing together ? I mean I heard that
already once, but I do not understand the science that is at play here. I think
this would help me understand better what I need to change in my formula: more
water phase ? more oil phase ? so far that is not clear to me, I was just
trying to avoid too much water in it, relative to my concern for preservation.

 Reduce complexity of
the formula: Got it, I will keep only one of these ingredients.

 Preservative: I will
start researching what type of preservative would be compatible for that type
of product and risk exposure.

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Hi Agate,

I would say I mostly tried a day or two after making. I have some older sample but they do not seem to get much better (harder) with time.

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Hello Imosca,

Thanks for your constructive feedback, here are my comments points per points:

- large amount of fatty matter:

I thought this would be the main part that would hold the bar together. I added more fats that are solid at room temperature rather than liquid ones. Like cocoa butter and brassica alcohol which has a melting point of 57°C.

I also add these fats so it can be nurrishing for the hair and scalp to try soften the harshness of surfactant.

I tried to add rice bran wax also to help hardenning the bar, it does help a bit. But just a bit

- hygroscopic load:

I did not know the oat and hydrolized proteins where hygroscopic, thanks for the feedback. The 10% oat powder I did not put before and I tried here thinking it would help with compacting. Since the mainsurfactant has rather large ball shape, I thought I would add this as a small size “filler”.

- manufacturing process:

To be honest this part is not yet figured out, but for now I keep the main surfactant (SCS) and oat powder in a bowl.

Separately, I melt the oil phase with the cationic emulsifier, to which I add then the water phase (which include the citric acid in solution). I then pour this hot liquid into the bowl with surfactant and mix to get to and homogenous dough.

I then add the essential oils and put in a mold.

I have a manual press, but for now that is not satisfactory at all, I cannot remove easily the bar from the mold as it is too sticky, even though I put non stick paper on the mold parts (you know the one for cooking).

Alternatively, I tried also to heat the oil part along with the main solid surfactant, but I did not see any difference, plus I only heat to 85°C max and SCS would not melt anyway at this temperature…

- pH correction

that is the purpose of the citric I add here, and like I said I dilute it in the water phase (coco glucoside + hydrolized rice protein + panthenol), making sure that I do not go over 55% concentration in the ‘actual’ water content of that phase.

To check the pH, I dilute the final bar @10% in distilled water and measure. I did not do it on this one specificaly, but on similar recipe the dilution was showing pH of around 5.5 which I was happy with.

- Preservation

I have not yet made lab tests on it, but I would like ideally to make a self preserving bar.

I am thinking of testing the water activity, hoping that it is below 0.7, and possibly do challenge test to see if even after going under the shower it can resists.

I hope I was clear, please do no hesitate to tell me if it was not

I really appreciate your help! I am looking forward to reading your comments.

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Hello, I am Benjamin, I recently trained on formulating natural cosmetic products. I am experimenting and learning a lot from my mistakes (I make a lot of mistakes since I am not a full trained cosmetic chemist :smiley: )

I have come accross this forum and podcast several times and I thought I will participate in the discussions here!

happy formulating