CosChemFan
Forum Replies Created
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@Belassi how great that I came across this! I’m actually working on a lotion project at the moment to aide with eczema. My current formula is getting some good feedback, but to me is leaving something to be desired. I’ll revise with some of your logic and see what I can get.
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@Chemist77 you don’t find that cationic guar leaves a residue and suppresses foam?
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@Chemist77 I was wondering the same thing. To my knowledge Peg-7 GC is a foam booster. I’m really curious to see what @Belassi‘s opinion is on that matter.
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@Belassi I’m certainly not committed to the PG or the peg-7 GC. I the PG was used to dissolve the salicylic acid which is always such a pain. Once my order of Glyceryl Oleate gets in I’ll replace the Peg-7 GC. I figured it’d make a good replacement.
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I do remember. Glad everything worked out well for you! Good luck at the expo.
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@Belassi I have some on it’s way per your suggestion.
Can’t wait to give it a try. There’s some PEG-7 Glyceryl Cocoate in the formula for refatting and emulsification of the oils, but I’m sure the oleic acid is really going to feel quite nice. I normally use the peg-7 GC and peg-50 Shea combo in my face wash formulas with great results.My ingredient list
Water
B5
Disodium EDTA
Glyceryl
Propylene Glycol
PEG-50 Shea Butter
Stearamidopropyl Dimethylamine
Salicylic acid
Cocodimonium Hydroxypropyl hydrolyzed protein
Sodium Coco Sulfate
Coco Betaine
Myristamine Oxide
Decyl Glucoside
Coco Glucoside
PEG-7 Glyceryl Cocoate
Oils
Glycol Distearate
Crothix
Germall Plus
Lactic Acid
Fragrance -
What did you end up going with @Belassi?
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@MakingSkinCare I used your suggestion of adding cetyl alcohol (2%) and the new batch turned out really well. It thickened about right where I wanted it with maybe a few tweaks needed in the next batch. Although I did notice a slight change in viscosity when I added my fragrance. It wasn’t too bad, but definitely noticeable. I’ll address that in the next batch. Thank you again!
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Update to this post:
I ended up making an “inspired by” version of this shampoo and got a pretty decent result. Granted I used a completely different surfactant (Sodium Coco Sulfate, Coco Betaine, Myristamine Oxide, Decyl Glucoside, and Coco Glucoside) and emulsification system, but it turned out well. It has very nice lather and foam with a nice moisturizing feel, but my skin felt a little depleted afterwards (washed my hands with it). I did learn that you can add quite a bit of oils (1% Avocado and Olive oil) to an emulsified shampoo and still have it foam really well. That’s a tool that I’ll put in my tool box. I’m sure if I played around with it a bit more I could get a better skin feel, but my formulation fell more on the ‘shampoo should clean philosophy’. -
@MakingSkinCare You’re very welcome! I got inspired to play around with the idea by your posts here and your calculator. I actually prefer Cetyl Alcohol to all the others I listed. It works well in my hair conditioner formulas, but I really wanted to try some of the other raw materials that are in stock to get a feel for them. I’ll regroup tomorrow and try it all again with the new suggestions. Would it be in good practice to keep both the MM and Cetyl Palmitate? When I was reading their information sheets they seemed to work well together in my head which is why I included them. However, looking at your descriptions it would seem Cetyl Palmitate gives the more desirable effect in a lotion over MM. It would also seem the effects cancel each other out or complement each other as well as I thought. I did notice a slight drag on the skin when I rubbed it in which I did attributed to the MM. It wasn’t a bad feeling just noticeable.
@Chemist77 Thank you for the suggestions. I’ll see if I can get a hold of a sample. -
Just a side note- I’m not asking anyone to break this shampoo formula down or tell me how to re-create it. I’m very well capable of doing that myself. I was just very surprised to see products with such long lists and shampoos lots of oils. I was curious if this was a common industry practice. I was asking for my own personal growth as my formulas aren’t as…”big”. I also asked about resources such as classes or books.
I really wanted to let that be known. Hope you’re all having a great day and thank you for your wonderful responses when I do post.Regards,CosChemFan -
REFRESH
From the Jungle
or
Jungle Mist
I’m sure you could find a spin or play on those words. I can see how the jungle could be sexy and refreshing if advertised right. I see a sweaty dirty muscular man making his way through the hot shady jungle were you he encounter a beautiful woman with gorgeous hair. They lock eyes, she smiles and walks away leaving beyond a bottle of ‘In The Jungle’ with Tea Tree Oil.
I’d be a horrible sells pitch person
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@Belassi I want to play around with a carbomer percentage and type as well as the percentage level of the PEG-8. It’s the only ingredient that I tried (after many failed attempts using others) that took away the crunchy/tacky feeling and added that conditioned feeling to the hair. I don’t have many water soluble ingredients to work with that perform the same function.
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@Ruben Thank you for that information. I understood that before, however; anytime I have added silicone during the heating phase the silicone always coagulates and I end up just removing the pieces from the formula. It’s happened to me every time I’ve added it to my oil phase. I typically heat my oil phase to about 80-85oC per what I’ve learned as standard operating procedure. After having this happen to me a few times I researched this phenomenon a bit. To my understanding, silicone doesn’t handle temperatures above 60oC and cyclomethicome doesn’t like temperatures over 100oC. That is why I always added My silicones at or below 60oC. Not trying to hijack your thread, just responding to you.
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Good morning (good afternoon) everyone!
@Belassi thank you for responding. I’ve said it before that I always enjoy reading your responses. If I lived in Mexico I would get to shadow you for a day or two
. Yesterday was my first time hearing about the Ojon line of beauty care products. I don’t believe Sephora sells them. I completely forgot about compounded ingredients and that very well may be the case here. I didn’t know that glyceryl oleate was such a multi-functional ingredient for shampoo. I usually use PEG-7 Glyceryl Cocoate as my re-fattening ingredient. I’m going to get a hold of some oleate to see the difference.@chemist77 I understand that it is a cream shampoo or an emulsified shampoo, but I would think with all those oils it wouldn’t foam as well as it does.
@Beaver Whoa that’s a huge list! How does it feel on skin and hair?
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@Laskedbetter
That is interesting and great information! I too always added the cyclomethicone and other silicones in the cool down phase (below 40oC). I also don’t cover my vessels which I honestly never thought of doing. Normally I would just “QS” the water phase at the end or add more in the beginning to compensate. Thank you for that gold nugget. -
Urea is a great moisturizer humectant. It also has keratolytic properties (skin-exfoliating), antiseptic & deodorizing effects. So maybe they using it as a moisturizer and penetration aid. There was a study that tested the penetration enhancing effects of urea with Vitamin A. The website isn’t taking my Universities credentials at the moment so I can’t access the full journal, but it’s on the European PubMed.
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If there is water in the formula my best educated guess would be that the beeswax, stearic acid, and paraffin are keeping things “stable” by preventing the water from escaping, but it doesn’t appear to be a solid emulsion.
Sidenote: I always wondered how herbalist kept their salves together using only beeswax and/or cetyl alcohol? And those things last!
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Great topic! I was actually wondering the ratio myself just the other. I always err on the side of caution out of pure fear and “big go or go home” when it comes to preserving. I’d hate to get anyone sick or worse. I typically use Germaben or Germall Plus (I alternate per formula), though I do have Paraben DU (bought after a comment @Perry made
This looks to be an anhydrous formula which doesn’t need an emulsifier because there is no water. Emulsifiers create O/W emulsions. Hope this helps!
Regards,CosChemFan -
Thank you so much for your suggestions! I managed to figure out how to incorporate both the complex and the PEG-8 Dimethicone. All it took was a little high speed mixing and patience while I waited for the foam to go down. The final product came out pretty nice, but I’m going to try 3 different formulas to compare and experiment.
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Hi Everyone!
So I did a knock out test with a few side experiments to find the coagulating culprit. Turns out it was the vitamin complex (Niacinamide (and) Sodium Starch Octenyl Succinate (and) Calcium Pantothenate (and) Maltodextrin (and) Sodium Ascorbyl Phosphate (and) Tocopheryl Acetate (and) Pyridoxine HCl (and) Silica) interacting with the Peg-8 Dimethicone. I’m not exactly sure why that is happening though. The Peg-8 Dimethicone kicks it out of the solution for some reason. Even when I just added the Peg-8 and the complex to water the complex would clump up as soon as Peg-8 was added. How strange. So I guess I’ll lower the complex percentage or take it out all together, but it was kind of the featured ingredient. Maybe at a much much less percentage…? Or find a replacement for Peg-8…? I really like the slip and feel it provides though. This is going to be tough.Any suggestions for PEG-8 Dimethicone replacements?Regards,CosChemFan -
Hi everyone!
I’m no professional or mentor like the great @PerryRegards,CosChemFan -
Hi @Bobzchemist
Oh geez! I’m using ultrez-20 to create the gel. I put the quat-31 in last as to not cause a reaction with anything else. It’s also a really small amount that I used. But I’ll knockout it out in the next batch to see. Thank you so much for responding.
Regards,
CosChemFan -
Thank you for responding @Bobzchemist and @Bill_Toge. I understand now and that makes so much sense. Your link has been very helpful. Thank you again for you help!
Regards,CosChemFan