CosChemFan
Forum Replies Created
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@David the silicone is a blend. Personally, I prefer the feel of dimethicone + cyclomethicone than to pure dimethicone or pure cyclomethicone. It’s not uncommon to see both in formulations already on the market nor is it uncommon to see multiple cationic quats. Look at an ingredient list for Ojon or Moroccan Oil for examples. I can’t speak to that necessarily being right or proper, but their customers sure are happy and their brands are considered “high-end”.However, this formula typically only uses CTAC and BTMS. CTAB was added for experimental purposes as I stated in my original post. -
@Perry Thank you for responding and giving me your feedback.The CTAC is the only ingredient I use for detangling and slip.typically.I decided to add CTAB to this particular version as an experiment out at a high percentage to see what it added to the formula. I actually started doing that because of your lessons!
CTAB is not normally in this formula, but since this version is for “dry and damaged” hair (CTAB supposedly has an affinity for damaged/perforated hair and enters the hair shaft) I added it to try it out. The only thing I noticed is it makes the formula foam a little at that percentage. Do you, Perry, believe in or have any knowledge of the additional properties of CTAB?The coconut oil at 5% was also an experiment. I usually keep it at 2% and the more expensive oils under .50%. Thank you again, Perry for that advice. I’ll make some revisions, try it again, and report back here.Regards,CosChemFan -
@Microformulation Hi Mark. Yes, I remember you telling me that over the phone when we spoke last year. I lowered it from 1000 cst to the 350 cst. I have a 6 cst dimethicone on hand and will try that. I thought the 350 cst was low enough. I’ll test the 6 cst and report back. Thank you for commenting.
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@Bobzchemist You were right, thank you. After a little more experimentation I got a working base. I upped the percentage of surfactant and lowered the glyceryl oleate a bit. The oleate still thins out the formula, but only a little bit. I realized once I mixed the oleate in the surfactant first and then added the water it gave me a better thickening result. I assume that’s why glyceryl oleate is mixed with coco-glucoside in Lamesoft PO-65 because with out it there’s a thinning effect. Thank you @Belassi for all your help.However, because I was having such a hard time with the glyceryl oleate I substituted it with PEG-50 Shea Butter and think I like that feel much better than the oleate plus it doesn’t give me the problems that the oleate does, and it’s MUCH cheaper lol. I might just buy some Lamesoft-PO though and try it out. I figured I’d save some trouble (and money) by incorporating just the glyceryl oleate, but it has been a pain.
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I’m looking to pay for the consultant’s time at their rate. I’m not sure if I made that clear or not in my original post.
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Thank you @belassi I was just reading up on that because I remember you telling that story and someone explaining it. I think it was @bill_toge that explained the phenomenon.
So my next question is, can I not make a shampoo using this mixture with a pH lower than 6.5? pH balanced products is one the line’s claims to fame.
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Formulating with SD is a bit interesting because the literature contradicts itself (at least mine does). I had to ask the supplier and they said you can neutralize SD either in the beginning or at the end. You still get the positive charge. I’ve used it neutralizing it both ways and the results were the same to me. You would think they would just list one method of neutralizing this stuff, but it’s one of those things I guess.
For a shampoo it’s easier to just throw the acid in the water phase. If you put SD in the surfactant phase add the acid to the water as well and combine. For conditioners adjust the pH at the end. I personally add the SD to the water phase and not the surfactant phase.If your pH in the water phase with SD is already acidic then just combine the phases because it’s already neutralized.And no, SD does not make a pearlized product. I was surprised by that too when I first used it. -
Update:
I made another batch this time with the carbomer 940 at 1%. I’m pretty sure I did my math wrong the first. Everything worked out well the second test batch. There was a slight decrease in viscosity, but other than that the gel is stable. It has a similar skin feel just with more glide. I’m going to try it in hair and see what we get. Thanks for all the help!
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@Bill_Toge I thought the some thing however, in the context of the document, carbomer was being talked about exclusive:
“Solubility & Formulating Information
Honeyquat 50 is freely soluble in water and in aqueous alcohol (60/40). It is soluble at 1% in the following materials: propylene glycol, ammonium myreth sulfate (60%), and cocoamidopropyl betaine. It is not soluble in oils and esters.
Unlike many conventional conditioning agents, Honeyquat 50 will not reduce the foam of anionic and non-ionic surfactants. Honeyquat 50 can easily be formulated with carbomers to form clear gels, provided that they are pre-neutralized. A slight loss in viscosity will result that can easily be compensated for by using 10% more resin by weight. The preferred carbomers include Carbopol 1342, ETD 2020, 941 and 940.
Honeyquat 50 is ideal for:
• Leave-on and rinse-off applications
• Substantive humectant, for hair and skin
• Softens and plasticizes skin
• Improves feel and styleability of hairHoneyquat 50 PF Typical Properties SAP Code # 138170
Appearance Clear to slightly hazy, pale straw colored liquid Odor Slight, characteristic amino note Color (Gardner) 6
Maximum Non-Volatile-Matter (1g - 1hr - 105°C) 49.0 - 54.0% pH (5% Solution @ 25°C) 4.0 - 6.5
Activity (Brooks Industries Test Method) 31.0 - 45.0%
Microbial Content 100 opg Maximum, No Pathogens
Preservative System 0.2 - 0.4% Sorbic Acid
Recommended Use Level 2 - 5%” -
Hi @ozgirl I’m aware of Ultrez-20, it works great! My question was more geared towards individuals that have experience using honeyquat 50 and carbomer 940 together due to the recent discovery that they can be used together. I’m positive Ultrez 20 would work as I use quats with it all the time for my hair gel forumla with no issues. Thank you for that document though. I didn’t have that one!
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Carbomer 940. I typically use Ultrez 20 for my hair gels, but wanted to try the carbomer after reading the literature
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I test everything myself and use only the hair care products I design and make. How else do you know how the consumer will experience the product? Plus it’s great stuff!
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Cetiol G16S (Eutanol Hexyldecyl Stearate) could be an option. I also use Isoeicosane. It’s just not as heavy, but feel wise it’s pretty similar I think. I use both in different lotion formulas with great results. Isoeicosane has a very satiny feeling going on and not greasy.
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Thank you @Perry!
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Thank you for responding! So @Perry I guess I’m looking for further clarification as to why you said cawarra’s formula had too much CAPB? Or were you making a general statement that the DEA + CAPB was too much? I just want to be sure I’m not over/under doing things over here in my formulas
).Regards,CosChemFan -
@Perry You mentioned that the CAPB should be formulated at a 5% “active base”. Most CAPB I’ve come across is only 30% active. So assuming that @cawarra has CAPB that is only 30% on an active basis he/she will only have 3.3% active material in the formula. And assuming he/she has a CAPB that is 50% active, 11% CAPB is 5.5% active material in the formula. Am I confused about how that works? I’m still a little fuzzy on this topic.
Regards,CosChemFan -
I have a similar formulation that I’ve experimented with. I tried HEC with it and got a good result, but I feel HEC feels a sticky after feel. It does work well for thickening and suspending. I also tried out Glucamate LT (PEG-120 Methyl Glucose Trioleate (and) Propylene Glycol (and) Water) which if used used high enough creates a very thick solution. Just my experiences.
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I use PEG-8 Dimethicone. It adds shine and great sensory. I use it at 2% as well and the gel is clear, but it leaves a weird slick feeling film on hair. It also takes away the tacky feeling feeling that the gel leaves.
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I love the worksheet @Perry cooked up. I use it every time. I made a few chances here and there, but it’s a pretty solid tool as is.
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@Braveheart very very true. That’s how I started.
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This is an amazing topic as I have been thinking about getting into this for a while. It is great to see responses from people that have been in the game for a while. @Belassi I never thought to use beauty bloggers as a way to get the word out. That’s a good idea.
In the same vein, what would be considered a product that is too expensive to produce and sell? I’m probably not phrasing this question properly, but I have a conditioner formulation that is about $11-$12/LB (contains high amount of MuruMuru butter). Would that be a product you would start up with or is there a price range per pound you want to stay within? -
@thebrain HEC is very picky about the temperature it hydrates in. Try hydrating it water slightly hotter than room temp. Only after it’s fully hydrated can you turn up the heat on it.
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Have you tried to use Crothix (PEG-150 Pentaerythrityl Tetrastearate)? Or even Glucose-T (PEG-120 Methyl Glucose Trioleate, Propylene Glycol, Water)? Even Polyquaternium-10 would work great in this situation. All are great thickeners and PQ-10 would be great for this application as it’s a conditioner.
I buy HEC as a ready made gel so it’s easier to mix and work with. I normally just add the gel to the water phase, mix well until the water is thickened. Add that to the sufactant phase.HEC needs to be hydrated for at least an hour before you use it. Use 25%-50% of the water phase to hydrate it. It should be hydrated in room temperature water with a neutral pH. It then can be heated. Mix all of your water ingredients in the other half of the water phase. IMHO, HEC doesn’t really thicken all that much to me even at the highest usage rate. And it feels slimey and sticky to me. -
@shahimanshair This is a water based product so adding the non-ethoxlyated versions of those ingredients would be kind of counterproductive and pointless. The point of using the PEG-8 Beeswax is to make the formula water soluble so it washes out a heck of a lot easier, but still give that waxy hold and finish. Normal beeswax, 1) wouldn’t give you that easy wash out and 2) more than likely would give a really ugly feel to the product (if it formed anything at all) since the other ingredients wouldn’t really combine with it. Not to mention water and waxes don’t mix very well. Regular castor oil is not even close to PEG-40 HCO. Two completely different ingredients. PEG-40 HCO is a surfactant, solubilizer,and can emulsify things if you really need it to. It doesn’t have moisturizing or conditioning properties, but it’s water soluble.
****You might want to obtain a better understanding of your ingredients and some basic chemistry to help you put this together.Regards,CosChemFan -
Isn’t this Bonafide Hair Pomade? If you’re a home crafter good luck finding one or two of those ingredients on that list. They aren’t available in small quantities unfortunately. If I had to guess the formulation would look like this:Phase AWATERCETEARETH-25 MakingCosmetics.comGLYCERIN (Any vender)PEG-7 GLYCERYL COCOATE (TheHerbarie.com and MakingCosmetics.Com)PEG 40 HYDROGENTATED CASTOR OIL (Makingcosmetics.com)SIMETHICONE (Not sure where to get this)PEG-8 BEESWAX (Not Sure)Phase BWaterPVP K90 (makingcosmetics)PROPYLENE GLYCOL (Anywhere)Phase CDMDM HYDANTOIN (personalformulator)POLYSORBATE 20 (Anywhere)FRAGRANCE (PARFUM)That would be my guess.
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