[Camel]

Glycolic Acid will increase the skin’s sensitivity to the sun. If you’re worried about your customers skipping the sunscreen, you could try to market it as a night cream. 

[Camel]

Syl said:

My supplier Belle Chemical in Montana also sells food grade, he told me it was the same as the technical grade, It is used to make hominy. 
I have come across some poor quality technical grade that would not completely dissolve in water. Hopefully, you have the good one. 

I also order my sodium hydroxide (and potassium hydroxide) from Belle Chemical. I have had a good experience with them. Unfortunately, I don’t believe they will ship to Hawaii. 

[Camel]

Perhaps @Graillotion can help…?

[Camel]

briley57 said:

@chemicalmatt so If I’m using sodium carbomer, I should just 86 the guarcat & HEC entirely? What would provide hold? Thank you 

You could. The carbomer would be all you need to form a gel (try it at 0.5% and make sure the pH is in the correct range). 

As for hold, I use polyvinylpyrrolidone (PVP), which as far as I know is not considered natural. There are natural hair fixatives such as RevCare NE 100S (Sodium Polyitaconate) but I don’t believe it is for sale in small quantities and I have never worked with it before. I’m not sure if it is compatible with carbomer, either. 

You could try your original formula, subbing the guarcat and hec for sodium carbomer, and see what kind of performance you get first. 

[Camel]

@Perry, I would love to hear your thoughts about this. 

[Camel]

Abdullah said:

pH 6

Can I ask why you suggest pH 6? Is it because of the SCI?

I spoke with Valerie (she is the seller of my SCI and also a cosmetic chemist) and she advised there is no problem with using SCI at pH 4-5. ????

Abdullah said:

Use sodium chloride.

When finished these ingredients 

Use SLES instead of coco sulfate

Use cationic guar instead of pq10 

It is about equal but much more expensive without any benefit in shampoo. 

I will try the sodium chloride to thicken it. I purchased SCS because it was actually cheaper than SLES and I thought it would perform similarly. ????

[Camel]

Abdullah said:

I would reduce pq10, HPMC and and sodium phytate to 0.1% each.
use EDTA instead of sodium phytate and CAPB instead of shea betaine.

What is the active percentage of each surfactant? 

Unfortunately, the picture didn’t show up properly, but the active percentages are: 

• Shea Surfactant: 35% active
• Sodium Coco-Sulfate: 95% active
• Sodium Cocoyl Isethionate: 85% active

Total Active Matter is about 10% in my formula. 

I can definitely try reducing PQ-10 and sodium phytate, but I’m afraid the viscosity will drop significantly without the HPMC at 0.5%. It’s already a low-viscosity, runny gel. I will try that and see what happens. 

I still have 1kg left of Shea Betaine, which is a lot for me since I make small batches for personal use. I will consider trying out CAPB after I finish it. ????

Is sodium phytate less effective than EDTA?

Thank you for your suggestions!

[Camel]

GeorgeBenson said:

@Camel I’m no expert but it looks pretty good to me. Do you need that much sodium phytate? Genuinely asking as I usually only use 0.1%.

Are you getting your shea surfactant from Simply Ingredients? I just received my first order of it from them and I find that it doesn’t foam very much but it leaves my skin feeling pretty soft…not as soft SCI does though. It’s pretty expensive too, no? They seem to be the only ones selling it…that I could find any way…maybe that’s why.

That was one of the questions I wanted to ask but forgot to. I honestly wasn’t sure how much sodium phytate is needed to be an effective chelating agent. My seller says 0.5% max so I just went with that. ????

Yes, that is where I purchase my Shea Surfactant and SCI. I love her shop and she (Valerie) has been been really kind to me in offering formulation advice so I don’t mind paying a little extra to support her. I don’t sell these products so cost isn’t much of a concern for me! 

Shea Surfactant does not provide much foam but I find the combination with SCS + SCI offers plenty of foam. I may consider increasing SCS to 6% and reducing SCI to 2% while keeping the active matter around 10%, just to see how that compares foam-wise.

Thank you for your comment!

[Camel]

Looking back at this discussion, I am quite embarrassed by how ridiculous this formula was. I have learned a lot since joining this forum and have now made a new shampoo formula:

Active Matter: 10%
pH: adjusted to 4.5

• Water: up to 100%
• Shea Butteramidopropyl Betaine: 8%
• Sodium Coco-Sulfate: 4%
• Sodium Cocoyl Isethionate: 4%
• Polyquaternium-10: 0.5%
• Hydroxypropyl Methylcellulose: 0.5%
• Sodium Phytate: 0.5%
• Phenonip: 0.5%
• Citric Acid: q.s.

@Abdullah, @ketchito, @PhilGeis - Any thoughts on this new one?

[Camel]

I think glyceryl oleate can stabilize it, according to a seller it can stabilize hair conditioner and INCIDecoder says so, too. 

I don’t know the answers to your other questions. Hope someone will help. I am curious, too. 

[Camel]

Use sulfates for squeaky clean + foam. 

[Camel]

@MarkBroussard - Thank you for clarifying and providing that thorough explanation! 

[Camel]

@Abdullah - Honestly, I am not sure how they compare. I can’t seem to find a study comparing them. I do not use these types of products either, as I also do not aspire to be white. ???? But, I would imagine prolonged use is necessary for noticeable effects. They probably need to wait 2-3 months to start to notice anything, if it does work.

[Camel]

@Abdullah - You might consider looking into sepi white if it is available to you. It is Undecylenoyl Phenylalanine. There is research that shows its efficacy in treating age spots and melasma at 2%. There is also a study by Procter & Gamble that found 1% Undecylenoyl Phenylalanine with 5% Niacinamide was more effective than niacinamide alone.

@AZIZ_KALUNGI256 - I agree with adding a chelating agent and a stronger preservation system. Look into Phenonip; it is a combination of phenoxyethanol and parabens that I was recently introduced to. You could probably use it at 0.5%. 

Why use sunflower oil when you are already using more effective emollients like mineral oil and dimethicone? You will probably need to add an antioxidant like tocopherol to prevent oxidation, I don’t believe I see one.

[Camel]

When I first started out, I was definitely a maximalist. I think the reason for this was that I would buy so many new ingredients and feel eager to try them all, so I would throw everything into one formula. Needless to say, that was not an appropriate way to measure the performance of each ingredient. 

Now, I would say I try to be more of a minamalist. I like the idea of the “10 ingredients or less” concept and try to follow it when I can. My most recent shampoo formula was only 8 ingredients, while my hair gel was only 6. 

I don’t think you are an outlier. This is becoming increasingly popular with brands like Native using their small number of ingredients as a marketing technique on their product labels. 

[Camel]

ngarayeva001 said:

I guess that if they are hydrogenated there should not be double bonds but it would be great to hear opinion of professionals.

Thank you; hopefully others will offer some insight!

[Camel]

briley57 said:

@Camel thank you. When using the carbomer, did you use a neutralizer? I really just don’t want to use carbomer. It’s synthetic and has to be neutralized with a synthetic base. 

I used sodium carbomer, which is a preneutralized carbomer, meaning you do not have to add anything to neutralize it.

It may be synthetic, but it is practically harmless and even used in baby products. Also, you will only need around 0.5% of it. So, you can still make a 99.5% “natural” product. ????

[Camel]

Abdullah said:

Do you mean you added oil and water phase together when cold and heated then and mixed together? 

Yes. 

Abdullah said:

Tomorrow i will make sample with liquid oil to see if petrolatum is the problem but i hop it is not because it is a much for my lotions. 

Good idea! I also suspected the petrolatum could be contributing to the viscosity, but at only 4% I feel like it shouldn’t be a problem. Still, it is worth it to try with liquid oil and see what happens. 

[Camel]

@PhilGeis - I suspect they are referring to Seventh Generation; it is in the US and uses 0.05% thymol with claims of 99.99% bacterial & viral disinfection.

[Camel]

@Abdullah - I made 3% BTMS-25 emulsion with 3% C10-18 Triglycerides (oil-gelling/stabilizer), 3% esters, 2% oils and 1% OliWax. All in one water phase. It was not too thick to mix, medium-viscosity lotion. 

I used low-shear, anchor paddle mixer at low-medium speed only. It’s stable for 2 months now. 

BTMS-50 should make thinner emulsion because it has less thickener in it, I think. 

[Camel]

I gave up on glass stirring rods after I broke one while stirring and it cut my thumb pretty badly. You can try a stainless steel stirring rod or a metal spoon as @Abdullah suggests.

[Camel]

I agree with @Perry about reducing some of those ingredients that may not actually have an effect. 

In my experience, HEC caused flaking in my hair gel. I swapped the HEC for sodium carbomer and kept everything else the same and the problem was solved. I’m not an expert and have no idea why this may be, but perhaps try swapping your HEC for another gelling agent and see if your problem remains. 

I also suspect the sugar/nectar could be contributing to your flaking, but I’m not sure. 

A knock-out experiment would be best. 

[Camel]

Graillotion said:

Simply Ingredients would be another source beyond reproach, but she has a very limited supply, but this is supposed to be increasing over time.

Glad to see some love for this small shop. Excellent quality and great packaging. I purchase a lot of ingredients from her, but on the topic of oils: I compared her watermelon seed and strawberry seed oils to a suspiciously cheap alternative I bought, and there were differences in odor and appearance. It definitely matters where you buy them from!

Valerie is so sweet and has been so graceful in helping me with formulation advice despite her busy schedule. She has confirmed with me that she has plans to increase her supply soon, and I recommend her shop to anyone looking for a trustworthy source.

[Camel]

Abdullah said:

Dimethicone reduces viscosity a lot. 
For me 0.3% dimethicone 5 cst reduces viscosity by half. 
1% percent dimethicone is more than enough.

I suggest these changes for viscosity and function.

Petrolatum 4%
Glycerin 4%
Dimethicone 1%
165 1%
Montanove l 1%
GMS or fatty alcohol 2%

I’m unsure if the dimethicone was the problem as I added it at room temperature and the emulsion was already milk-thin. I do believe it will need a fatty alcohol or some other increase in thickener! 

Thanks again, I will continue experimenting with this. 

[Camel]

@Abdullah - Update on the xanthan gum swap: I made milk! ????

Reduced glycerin to 5%, niacinamide to 4%, petrolatum to 3%. Removed tocopherol. Subbed EL40 for DM350, PE for LGP, and HEC for XG. Increased butter pearls to 2% and added NatraSil for emollience at 3%. 

Viscosity substantially decreased to a milk-like consistency rather than a lotion. I suspect the XG at 0.3% wasn’t enough to provide viscosity of HEC at 1%. I did sub the crosspolymer for DM350 but in my other sample this did not affect viscosity.

On the bright side, it absorbs very quickly leaving no residue/soaping and it does feel less tacky with the decrease in glycerin. 

I will experiment with adding more butter pearls to increase viscosity or including a polymeric (I will need to purchase).