[belassi]

The thing is, and I don’t want to step into politics here, that in other countries - eg, Mexico and the whole of the European Union, a small manufacturer like us can enter the market, but in the USA, small manufacturers are shut out completely because of extravagant costs of FDA testing, which to my mind is a disgrace and a perpetuation of “the rich get everything and the rest fight for the crumbs”.

Here in Mexico for instance I can claim antibacterial properties for a product without worrying that powers on high are coming after me, providing that my ingredients comply with the regulated ingredients list (which simply acts to prevent noxious substances being used).

[belassi]

@Bobzchemist: I’ve never heard of that, can you let me have more information?

[belassi]

caprylyl glycol is one of the components of Spectrastat and gives the benefit of good skin feel as well as being the preservative. What preservative are you using?

[belassi]

@milliachemist: Yes, that could work. Or perhaps a PEG silicone that’s water dispersible, that would give a clear gel. I don’t think it’s really necessary though, if the basic components are chosen carefully.

[belassi]

I’d use vitamin E, say 0.2% total. I constantly have to replace my stock of D-Limonene (orange peel oil) because it oxidises so fast.

[belassi]

Remember, developing a relationship with a factor is important. For instance, I and one other customer in this whole city buy Glucamate VLT. The factor has to buy it in 200Kg minimum. I usually buy 5Kg or maybe 10Kg at most (it is fairly expensive). The factor is taking quite a risk stocking that quantity for just two clients.

[belassi]

Absolute madness. The FDA is not fit for purpose. 

[belassi]

Thanks!

[belassi]

Yellow pages! Look for chemical factors. There about 15 surfactant suppliers in my city … some of them sell “knock offs” of commercial domestic products. I was in one a few weeks ago, picked up a container of some pink stuff. “Hey this smells like Downy!” - “Oh yes, well it is actually. Our version.” And so on.

[belassi]

@milliachemist: I don’t think Polyquart H-81 is a contender here, it’s a resin condensate and film former, it would for sure leave a film on the skin.

[belassi]

Well let me take a look at my gels, which are rapidly increasing in sales … 

Water 81% 

C6090C 10% (which means this gel is actually 100% aloe vera)

D-Panthenol at 1% - skin loves this ingredient.

Glucam E-20 at 1% - this is a humectant and alternative to glycerin.

Hydrolysed wheat protein at 1%. 

The rest is botanicals.

The sensorials for my gels are fine, consumers like them, and also have commented that the gel leaves when dry, a good surface for makeup.

I use Ultrez-20 at 0.8% - you might try the same. To begin, try making a gel with 0.8% Ultrez-20 (I don’t like 940 in gel, it has the wrong skin feel) and use 1% glycerin and 1% hydrolysed wheat protein and 1% D-Panthenol.

You also need to look very very carefully at your preservative system because that will alter the sensorials - possibly a LOT. I use 0.7% Spectrastat in the gels and it gives an excellent skin feel. Parabens isn’t an option because there is no propylene glycol or polar substances to dissolve it.

[belassi]

Carbomer “490”? Are you sure you don’t mean 940? If you meant 940, I suggest changing to Ultrez-20 which seems better in gels. Keep the 940 for creams.

[belassi]

That’s right. That is exactly the intention. I only began trying the Polyquart a few weeks ago but now I love it; unlike actual cationics, it is a pseudo-cationic film former that gives the hair a bit of a luster; and you can use it in an anionic (traditional) recipe as well as in a sulphate-free type.

I forgot to add to the list: citric acid, q/s for pH=5

The formula is perhaps a little too thick, adjust the salt accordingly.

This particular combination yields a clear shampoo.

Oh, PS I apologise for it not adding up to exactly 100% - I did say it was a development project (grin)

water should be 62% I think.

[belassi]

Oh finally I see what this is about. Not using shampoo, instead using conditioner to wash the hair.

I have some very strong opinions on this, be warned. I believe that the cause of this whole idea is basically the crummy, low quality shampoos found in stores, especially the ones with SLS. Unsurprisingly, consumers discover that their shampoo is rubbish and messing up their head. So do they spend more on a good quality shampoo? No, they simply blame all shampoos for the problem and decide that conditioner is a better thing to wash hair. Which is not a sensible decision.

[belassi]

I have developed three gel products so far; an anti-wrinkle gel, an exfoliant gel, and an anti-acne gel. None of them have any thickener other than the carbomer, all have proved popular with customers. You’ll need to provide more information as to the formula, you haven’t given us enough to work with. For instance you haven’t specified what carbomer you used; this makes a big difference to the sensorials.

[belassi]

I keep 940, Ultrez-20 and Aqua SF-2 in stock, but when I tried substituting Ultrez-20, it changed the feel of the product in a not-nice way, unfortunately. 940 is a pain to use… but gives a perfect sensorial.

[belassi]

Thanks for that. I suspect though, that if I go lower in pH I will have emulsion stability problems because, frankly, the emulsion would not be stable without the carbomer’s effect, and the carbomer needs to be not too acidic or it won’t work properly. I’m not worried about the preservative because it’s a parabens system, and at 0.5% we’re already past 4 years on the long term shelf test.

I designed the product before I knew enough emulsion chemistry and I can clearly see that it’s only the carbomer that keeps it stable; but it is a really popular product so I won’t mess with the formula just because it’s theoretically unstable (grin).

[belassi]

OK, here you are:

water 66%

SLES  12.5%

CAPB  12.5%

SCAA  5% (sodium cocoamphoacetate)

calendula extract (hydrosol) 0.5% (label appeal)

Lamesoft PO 65 1.5% (humectant and conditioner, also provides foam)

potassium sorbate 0.5% preservative

Polyquart H-81 2% (pseudo cationic, anti-frizz, anti-static)

EDTA 0.1%

Salt for thickening 2.5%

Tea Tree Oil 0.1% (anti-fungal, anti-microbial, anti-mite)

Fragrance 0.8% (I used vanilla and lavender)

[belassi]

By the way, using a large microwave oven is a really good and quick way to raise the temperature of a batch of up to say 6 Kg, and microwaves effectively sterilise the container at the same time. Once you know the timing, you simply input how many minutes, and when it switches off, there you go, batch at correct temperature!

[belassi]

Tried it myself this morning. Not bad. In fact I would say it’s a commercial product. Being a perfectionist though, I want bigger bubbles! (I am always trying to get big-bubble foam of the style I get from cold process soap, which is a pretty tough target, CP soap having such great foam)

I think I will do another supplier investigation to see what alternative surfactants are available. Obviously, using SLS would give the kind of foam I’m looking for, but I won’t use that because it is too irritating. If anyone is interested I will post the whole of the current formula.

[belassi]

Thanks for the useful info, I had noticed it darkening a bit over time. I’ll try that because I have both of those.

[belassi]

Not really. I never understood what she was talking about.

[belassi]

There is some trick that Swift mentioned about how to identify polar vs nonpolar fragrances. Something to do with adding it to cyclomethicone. One causes a reaction and the other doesn’t. I’m not sure if cyclopentasiloxane, which is what I have, would work the same way. . . 

[belassi]

Solubility gluconolactone: Soluble in water (500 g/l) (50%) at 20 °C, alcohol (1g/100g), (1%) and methanol (very slightly). Insoluble in ether, diethyl ether, and acetone.

From which, I deduce that you have alcohol in your product!

[belassi]

@Perry: You’d need a lot more salt because the betaine has quite a bit… or maybe you shifted the curve using MEA or DEA?