[belassi]

Well, marketing is what runs the personal care industry, you know. I like to do shows because people often ask me if we have products that can cure some kind of skin problem or another, eg dark patches or whatever. I found I had to learn a lot about dermatology, because I am very interested in therapeutic cosmetics.

[belassi]

@Iaskedbetter: Thanks a lot for that note about silicones. I have found the same thing - the last thing I designed with a silicone in it was a conditioner, and I had to experiment with the range of emulsifiers I have before it would stop separating. It took quite a lot of work.

The one I intend using is Polydimethylsiloxane fluid 1000, so called because it is quite viscous, it has a viscosity of 1,000 Cs. How much emulsifier would you use for say 1% of that?

[belassi]

Supposedly the ideal shaving soap is made with a mixture of NaOH and KOH rather than one or the other. You can find discussions about that on soap forums. It’s usually a hot process with a lot of stearic acid; the aim is to produce a dense, slippery lather that is very stable.

You can have fun experimenting with different mixtures of oils and fats to find the perfect recipe. For instance, if I were going to do that, I might use a mixture of 40% stearic acid, 20% castor oil, 10% shea butter, 10% olive oil, and 20% coconut oil. I would probably try a 50-50 K/Na mixture at first, to use as a baseline.

You will need to neutralise it with boric acid.

[belassi]

940 will absolutely not work with natural soap like you have there.

[belassi]

I’ve solved this problem. I made another 1.5Kg test batch today. This time I increased the MEA to 2% and found that 2% Glucamate was very adequate, giving a syrup-like consistency. Perfectly clear, unlike when I tried the PEG-150 which even in small amounts gave a translucent shampoo.

So, on to the next item.

[belassi]

I was also wondering what makes some creams cost 100$ and some 10$

Welcome to the forum. To answer your question: MARKETING.

[belassi]

Thanks Bob. That’s what I thought. In that (second) comment by Swift she refers to cetyl as an emulsifier but it certainly isn’t.

[belassi]

Swift was talking about cetyl alcohol, not cetearyl.

[belassi]

Or see PDF document M-0016(LA) from Lubrizol. Item C(5) is a commercially available blend.

[belassi]

What’s silly is, there is little point in trying to do much cost reduction on the contents when the packaging costs more.

[belassi]

@nasrins: Just the freeze-thaw test cycle and observation over time, that’s all.

[belassi]

Continuing work on this. I tried a solution of just 15% APB and added a few % of CAPB. Thickened perfectly and a tiny amount produced lots of foam.

[belassi]

A man who has lived his life, is not bother him the aging of his body.

Speak for yourself! It sure bothers ME!

Sometimes when I have an exhibition coming up I’ll use our anti-wrinkle cream on one side of my face only, in advance. This results in a noticeable difference even after a few days and has on occasion helped me sell quite a lot of product…

[belassi]

Someone in past (1year ago) said stearic acid in creams that is not saponified it is useless, any truth in that ?

Whoever told you that, was telling you complete nonsense. Stearic acid has been used as a thickener for donkey’s years. It was the reason why “cold” cream was so called, stearic gives a “cold” sensation on the skin.

You have around 8.5% of lipids in the formula and only 1.5% emulsifier! This formula is unbalanced and will separate, it’s only the carbomer that is holding it together. Frankly it reminds me of one of my own early hand cream formulae that has the same issue, it is still a popular product but I know very well that without the carbomer it would separate.

My advice is:

1. Only add exactly the right amount of KOH to neutralise the carbomer. Use the manufacturer’s guidelines.

2. The amount of carbomer is too low to achieve a stable emulsion. Increase it to say 0.3% that should work well.

3. Remove the beeswax. Increase the stearic acid to thicken. Probably 3% or so will be about the right level but you will need to experiment.

4. The avocado oil will remain on the skin so if you get a greasy sensation persisting, remove and replace with an alternative. Actually I suggest replacing it with shea or kpnangan butter which have real benefits for the skin due to the retinol content, and being a solid fat, will thicken.

5. Finally, study the HLB emulsification method so you will know how to design emulsions in future. 

OK?

[belassi]

Thanks. I should get there in the end. (I hope)

[belassi]

Further to my last: this looks like quite a nice liquid facial soap. The shea will give a silky effect. If you can find it, kpnangan butter would be even better. And replace 2% of the shea with castor (more conditioning, more bubbles). I think if you add salt you may find that it begins to sequester.

[belassi]

By the way, I fed the given formula into soapcalc and it corresponded exactly to the requirement percentages for a potassium soap. So, it’s basically a diluted liquid soap. You’re asking how to thicken a liquid soap. Well, frankly, that is a matter that you’ll find discussed on a soapmaker’s forum.

You might try heating the soap solution to 70C and dissolving say 2% of MEA with slow agitation and then continue agitation while cooling to room temp. I have found that the addition of a low % of MEA to CP soap (solid bar soap made with NaOH) increases hardness slightly and makes the soap last longer in the shower. As I recall, sodium lactate in a low % makes soap harder so you might try that. There is no point in adding glycerine as there will already be plenty of that. Apart from those, you’d need to research a thickener suitable for high pH (typically pH = 10) surfactant solutions.

[belassi]

squalene

[belassi]

Well I certainly hope it IS soluble in water or I will be in trouble! (grin) but I don’t yet know the price.

[belassi]

Today’s work on this, I increased the MEA to 1% and ran a 1.5Kg test batch. The Q/S for the VLT was now 2.2% indicating, I suspect, measurement errors for the 0.5Kg batch. (I have big problems measuring and incorporating small amounts of the thickener because it is like handling a thick, very sticky, glue)

Well, that’s a lot better than having to use 3.7% but I am not quite there yet. I wish I had all the thickeners available that you have in the USA.

Having said that, a quick check on EBay and Amazon indicates that (eg) Konjac powder actually costs MORE than my current thickener

One of my suppliers has PVP so I will ask for the price of that.

[belassi]

“i add 10% solution to sap stearic acid”

 = soap! What did you think it was?

[belassi]

Exactly. I wonder why?

[belassi]

This is not going to work, ever. When you try to lower the pH the potassium stearate will separate and you will end up with snot. You can’t lower the pH of natural soap, it breaks down.

[belassi]

I’m looking at using just 0.7% in the formula according to the results of today’s test batch. I was in Walmart today so I methodically checked all the sulphate-free shampoos. Pretty much all of them had MEA and some DEA as well which seemed a little over the top. Otherwise the rise in cost of the thickener causes a 25% price increase and kills the product.

[belassi]

In my experience, yes. I believe the ammonium radical is generally regarded as milder.