[belassi]

Not necessary. However both contain sorbic acid which implies a finished pH of <= 5.5

[belassi]

If you want to use a vitamin C compound effectively, you should closely follow the supplier’s recommendations. In my case, Showa Denko provide several example formulations and these relate to the product lifetime versus certain criteria.
The criteria are mainly solvents in the formula. I guess if you’re in the USA then it may be easy enough to obtain the specialised solvents that inhibit oxidation. Propylene glycol for instance is the reference (but isn’t great) and glycerol is useless. So unless you’re into 2,4-6 propenadiol, etc, vitamin C is a challenging active to formulate with. 
In my case, the testers are so in love with the product that I have decided to continue working with it even though I am having the hassle of sourcing new airless packaging, boxes for the package, print a product leaflet to go inside the box, work with small batches and refrigerate at point of sale, etc.
It really is that good. But yellow … well they say, don’t eat the yellow snow.

[belassi]

http://swiftcraftymonkey.blogspot.mx/2011/08/question-why-are-behentrimonium.html

[belassi]

Looking at the formula again, I doubt there is enough emulsifier in it. Maybe I should add 2% cetearyl alcohol and up the PEG-7GC to 2%.

[belassi]

I tried mixing this batch before and could never get the white flakes of the glycol distearate to disappear?
Wrong process procedure. Melt the distearate separately, raise the temp of the primary surfactant to the same temperature, mix well.

[belassi]

It’s expensive, unfortunately. I can work with it though.

[belassi]

@Microformulation very interesting and useful, thanks for that. I think my starting formula seems about right. 

[belassi]

My suggested starting formula for development:

water 66.7%
glyoxilic acid 15%
propylene glycol 5%
glycerine 3%
dimethicone fluid 1000 cst 2%
cyclopentasiloxane 2%
cetrimonium chloride 2%
hydrolysed keratin 1%
hydrolysed oat protein 1%
PEG-7 glyceryl cocoate 1%
fragrance 1%
preservative 0.8%
vitamin E 0.5%

comments and suggestions please!

[belassi]

It seems this system is pretty new. There are not that many products. The one found everywhere is Escova Progress, which has about 100 ingredients in the LOI. A simpler product is the “smoothing fluid” from Lisse. LOI (my suggested percentages - please discuss!)

Water (q/s)
Glyoxilic acid 10-20%
Propylene glycol 5%
Dimethicone 2%
Cetrimonium chloride 2%

========= less than 1% line =============

Guar Hydr. chloride 1% (don’t have it so I will omit this)
hydrolysed collagen 1%
hydrolysed keratin 1%
styrene VP copolymer (don’t have it so I will omit this)
polysorbate 20 1%
trametes versicolor extract (mushroom) 0.1%
babassu oil 0.1%
preservative
vitamin E

[belassi]

I’ll have to search. I can’t access that link due to location restrictions.

[belassi]

I assumed you meant 40% at 12% activity. But 40% of surfactant is a lot. Too expensive. My own total of surfactant is 27% and that includes 9% of CAPB which is a cheap surfactant.

[belassi]

I just opened the product sheet and it appears that the KEM NAT is soluble in water, alcohols, and polar oils. It also has Ecocert so would be an attractive option, we are already using a high percentage of Ecocert ingredients. 

[belassi]

Thanks Ozgirl. So, the KEM DHA perhaps.

[belassi]

Also, this: Just take a hard look at the active matter in your ingredients. Those words mean what they say, you know. You’ve got:

Plantapon SF  4.8% 

Plantacare 1200 UP (Lauryl Glucoside) - 6% at 50% active = 3%

Cocamidopropyl Betaine (30%) - 1.8%

So you’ve got around 9.6% active matter, and you think it will foam much? Apart from the foaming qualities of the surfactants, less than 10% active matter is not going to foam much.
This is the reason I chose for my own shampoo a carboxylic acid with better than 90% active matter. I only use 10% of that, and already I’ve got the same amount of active matter as your whole formula which is 52% surfactants! Then I add two more surfactants as recommended by the manufacturer of the primary surfactant, and I have a great foaming shampoo that feels superior to many sulphate bases. I have to say, it took me two years of lab work to get there. If you don’t want to invest that kind of time, I recommend you try Iselux’s blend. It is almost as good as my formula, costs a little more.

[belassi]

Bob, thanks for that. I didn’t realise the odour was so strong.
Elise, you’re saying that Tristat Eco is insoluble in water? Have I got that right?

I’ve just learned that the MOQ is 1Kg which is fine, and also they’re going to send me samples of the three.

[belassi]

You are using cocamide DEA, not DEA. Do you understand what the CDEA is for? Do you understand what the salt curve is and how to do tests to reveal it? I hate to say this but it appears to me as if you are trying to formulate products without any experience. If that’s the case I recommend you find someone who knows what they’re doing. Seriously.

[belassi]

There is a substantial subset of consumers who find SLES irritating. If you want to be able to offer them a product, I suggest formulating a shampoo with less irritating surfactants. An ALS/ALES/CAPB combination would be less irritating. Better than that, you will have to use a sulphate-free formulation.

[belassi]

And regarding the fragrance, either do as Bob suggests or prepare samples without fragrance and test fragrances to see which is OK.

[belassi]

I discontinued Lamesoft PO65 in my shampoos because of reports of allergic reaction.
You are discovering how difficult it is to formulate an effective sulphate-free shampoo. I have a lab full of partially used surfactants as a result of the same intention. You need to find a surfactant that gives adequate foam for a reasonable % concentration. That’s the first step and you haven’t passed that point yet by the sound of it. 
Get hold of as many possible candidates as you can and do foam tests on them all.
Once you have passed that, you will need to find an effective thickener because you won’t get thickening otherwise. In my case I use Glucamate VLT which is expensive but has great sensorials and keeps viscosity within an acceptable range even in a wide range of ambient temperature.

[belassi]

That’s a standard sulphate based shampoo like 98% of the ones on the market except that you’re using quite a lot of cocamide DEA which has a pH of 8-10 and therefore I suspect the pH is alkaline and causing problems.

[belassi]

(1) Yes, and you should heat the solid past its melting point and add it to the SLES which also should be higher than the melting point.
(2) No.
(3) 5 - 6

[belassi]

I use a rather different type of vitamin C, Apprecier, from Showa Denko. Generally speaking, yellow = oxidised and degraded. I am adopting an airless container for this product and we recommend keeping it in the refrigerator.
You need to be very careful when formulating with vitamin C. Too high or too low a pH at some point, or the wrong temperature, and it’s gone. Activity declines as a straight line from manufacture, so you want to make small batches.

[belassi]

It is absolutely impossible. The person’s qualifications do not include chemistry, which is the relevant knowledge here.

[belassi]

Please list the ingredients rather than trade names. The formula doesn’t add up to 100% and without knowing what the batch size is, what percent is “150gm”? Why make things difficult for people when you want help?

[belassi]

By a strange coincidence one of the reps called me today to ask if I would like a sample of hydrolysed oat protein. Of course I said yes. This is especially interesting because I will be able to compare it with my DIY version.

It occurs to me to experiment further, but I am going to have problems with lack of equipment. I’d really need a press. I guess soy beans would be another easy candidate.

Now for my question. Let’s say I want to make a shampoo with 1% colloidal oatmeal. But 10g oatmeal hydrolysed to 100mL makes a pretty gummy protein solution. How to calculate how much to put in???