BartJ
Forum Replies Created
-
It’s a fragrance ingredient. I’ve used it in a product once(0,6%). Wasn’t sticky.
-
Good to hear. I like to solve some functional fragrance problems in my free time. Experimenting with a basic perfumery setup, etc… Was looking for a challenge.
Is this for SLS-free? I guess if it’s foaming that much it’s quite a breakthrough.
-
Are you still working on it @Belassi or is your fragrance challenge solved?
-
Matt, could you please share a few thought on why you recommend chloride rather than TMS for Behenyl and it’s work with silicones?
So far I only used the BTMS variants without a reason to complain. Very curious of your opinion.
-
Hello
Had a thought about it and Sodium Lactate is already a salt, it doesn’t seem to be taking part in the reaction. It just peacefully coexists in the product with other newly formed sodium salts.
So you can use it post-trace at the fragrance/additives temperature.
Is it doable when working with the temperature demands of stearic acid? -
Hi maddies,
As someone who went through the period of ‘crafting’ in his path to become a formulator, I hope I can be the right person to give you information.
You seem like you mean well and you’re also making logical conclusions, which is great. You know that high pH of a soap bar is unsuitable for hair and you try to counteract this. This is a good attitude.
However, it is all faux-science….
Why would you serve someone’s hair with the wrong product in the first place? Hair products are meant to have low pH, precisely to avoid the problem.As to you conditioner. If counteracting the high pH is your main goal, then low pH is your answer. Citric acid?
Better still if you start taking steps towards creating a correct shampoo product. You are already working with a water based product that requires preservatives. In that instance you seem to be ready to step away from anhydrous shampoo and make a proper one. (this discussion board holds an enourmous amount of info on shampoo formulation)
P.S. EWG is cancer on the world of cosmetic chemistry.
It’s an affiliate marketing website styled up as a scientific authority. You may be forced one day to formulate a product congruent with it’s message but that for marketing purposes. As a person learning chemistry you must avoid it at all cost.
Replace it with: CIR , SCCS , IFRA + your national regulator.P.P.S. For basic formulating instructions (includes posts covering the topics you’re working on now) -> search: Swift Crafty Monkey
And on a final personal note. Even in my soap making days I refused to create any shampoo bars precisely because I would not ignore the issues listed above. This could be the reason why I am where I am today.
-
Having some perspective from the pharmaceutical end I believe you are both right in your own respects.
The standards set for pharmaceutical production are a nightmare and the execution by agencies FDA/EMA is unforgiving. From that point of view there really is no doubt as to those agencies protecting the quality of products and consumers’ safety. The risks of poor quality in pharmaceutics are too dangerous for it to be any other way.
So from a scientists/technician point of view FDA is a strict regulator.But what Belassi says is true on the political, not technological, level.
Regulation controls the flow of money.
So it’s a whole different story from a business owner’s side.The reason I personally quit pharmacy and came to cosmetics is a regulatory one. In cosmetics, the ‘mere mortal’ still has a chance. It’s not easy but it is still one of the few businesses that’s not political. It’s mostly just between us and them, producers and consumers.
And as long as it stays this way, careers will flourish. -
Hey, would this help?
http://www.soapguild.org/Certified-Lye/lye-calculator.php
https://www.thesage.com/calcs/LyeCalc.htmlThose calculators allow for simultaneous NaOH/KOH calculation. Did I get your problem right? Sorry, just reading briefly in a bit of a rush…
-
Just want to say thanks for the knowledge you bring. This website is one of those rare places on the web.
I’m currently buying a refurbished Silverson FX and it’s got the general purpose head coming with it.
Considering that my main goal here is to create emulsions. What other heads should I get from the company?The current brochure, the heads are on page 5:
http://www.silverson.com/images/uploads/documents/Silverson_Brochure_US.pdfI was thinking that the square hole high shear would be the most important one for me.
-
@Rifqyshindy
I’m quite into those pomades myself and let me tell you what I like to do.
http://www.the-pomp-official.com/
The guy from this website has reviewed hundreds - hundreds! - of pomades. You can learn so much from him on the final user experience. When you see one there that gets great reviews, just check their ingredients and grow your formula along.
The 4 you listed now, it’s a good exercise but it’s not enough, I promise it’s just not enough to make a good styling product. Go ahead and see what people are using in their waterless pomades.
Also… You now have 12,8% essential oil. For a number of EOs out there you’ll reach toxic levels. Keep it at 1%.>the result become very hard in upper layer and too weak (like a jam or creamy) in inside,, im wondering what happend
The disparity between melting points of wax and carrier oils is causing this. You need a melting point bridge. And the product must be cooled down with the lid on. Otherwise the air will flash cool the wax in the top layer and leave the ‘jam’ below.
-
Is there a chance to know what preservative was it? For the sake of learning experience, it would be nice to understand if it had bacteriostatic or bacteriocidal properties with regards to the bug.
-
I’m happy to hear you’re getting into this as well.
When applying such a product please protect your lips and the edge of nostrils with a bit o petrolatum until it’s absorbed.
Looking forward to see what’s your experience with the project!A few questions come to mind though:
Why use Retinyl Palmitate when you have Retinol aboard?If Palmitate is the yellow bit, what colour(and form) is your Retinol?
Also it’s worth mentioning that when Retinol is your primary peeling active, you want to be a little higher in the pH. Say 5.5. Your acids are there just to support, you no longer need to prioritise them in the formula. They disrupt the stratum corneum but it’s Retinol that causes the removal.
-
Yes, they’ve got the money and entry point into retail.
-
‘I think the carve-out here in the regulations is that if a product is sold to qualified professionals only, and not the general public, then the regulatory requirement does not apply provided the product is safe.’
I would love to be able to pin down some legal document that makes a statement to that effect and will certainly look into it.
-
I must admit that you’re completely correct in terms of limits imposed on salicylic acid. I might have been too quick to say that this is a grey area.
I rechecked the regulation and the guidances and there is in fact a way of marking the ingredients as ‘for professional use’.
Salicylic doesn’t have this designation.
The problem I have here is that there are tons of products marketed as having all sorts of concentrations of salicylic acid on the european market. Only a month ago I was at a trade show with products for esthetitians/cosmetologists and you could find anything you like there made by companies from all over the continent.
(like in the post above, the benchmark company is from Spain and openly publishes a brochure stating 6% salicylic acid) -
Hello,
@DragoN , that’s correct, they performed the procedure in their own way. So the photos present the effect of 4 hrs application, not the 2 hrs as recommended by the manufacturer.
@David , this is a grey area because this is a product for ‘Professional use only’, so the usual SCCS guidelines can be interpreted (corresponding CIR materials on AHAs give more information on professional use of those acids).
On top of creams, there is a number of products on the market that are presented as ampoules with highly concentrated acids. They look like medication but they’re not. They’re cosmetics for professional use. They require a neutralisation procedure to be performed after application due to the extreme acid concentration.
Different countries will interpret this in different ways. In some, a dermatologist/plastic surgeon can only use them, in some others they are in use in beauty parlours.
In Poland, we don’t have beauticians using them, we have cosmetologists - that’s a 3yr bachelor degree normally taught at pharmacy departments - who are a registered profession to perform such procedures.
But they are cosmetics nonetheless. They have ‘Only to be apllied by a professional’ written on the side of them and you won’t purchase any of the products I’m dealing with here in a retail outlet.
-
Hi all
I apologise for disappearing, things were really busy and I just couldn’t get down to write everything up. To complicate things, the person who wanted me to create the product has shifted her focus somewhere else and asked me to work on the new project rather than this.
I just want to sincerely thank everyone for their input, I am sure that I will finish this product at some point and when it happens I’ll come back to show it to you.
The original I was working on:
http://www.intermedexp.com/en/inno-exfo-lighteningI found the brochures from the company - public info, not internal - where the actives are listed as:
Retinol - 5%
Salicylic - 6%
Lactic - 8%
Phytic 0.5%I’m attaching photos of skin peeling effect at 48h following a single application of I-E-Lightening:
(the procedure: the skin is cleansed with isopropyl alcohol solution beforehand to degrease, then the peeling cream is applied and the face is washed 4 hrs afterwards, light moisturiser is used later in the day)
That is the benchmark for the new product.
I was able to have a conversation with some cosmetic chemists who manufactured similar peeling creams and everybody seems to follow a consensus that it’s the high retinol content that does the job here and the other acids are acting to support.
I also gave a phytic serum a shot, as described by Mark. I brought phytic acid up to 20%(+6% salicylic) and had the pH around 2-3. It peels… but it’s not what you see above.
@Bill_Toge
The brochure from the benchmark company says they are using retinoic acid. It’s just there in the text randomly. That’s Tretinoin, a Rx drug that essentially does Retinols job at around x100 potency. It’s also the same yellow powder and could look the same. Then later all the info they give goes back to Retinol and no more mention of retinoic acid.
This made me think at some point that this is what makes the product work so well. But like I said above, I spoke to someone who also formulated a yellow peel and it works on Retinol.P.S. Belassi, the price of Phytic Acid I gave above was for a 50% solution. Sorry!
P.P.S. I know in the USA the salicylic acid comes with a lot of restrictions, it’s not the case in Europe, hence the liberal approach both by me and the other companies here.
Also this is a product for application by a professional - in case you know the SCCS guidelines for salicylic and wondering if I missed something. -
There’s some useful info on this website:
http://shop.perfumersapprentice.com/
They deal in both aromas and flavours and have some educational materials on the topic. Also when an aromatic product has flavour properties they will include data on that in the product description.From my limited exposure to the topic, flavours like to be water soluble whereas aromatic materials are destined for use in oil/alcohol.
-
Have a read though the documents I’ve linked in your other topic. If you aspire to be a skincare entrepreneur in our part of the world, you will simply not survive a few months without indepth knowledge of them to see any profit before penalties start rolling in and trading standards officers start knocking at your door.
The reason why some liquid soaps get away without preservation is that their pH is above 10.
In theory only… because a product with pH above 10 would make the skin feel quite awful - notice how whoever invented it went and lowered the pH with citric acid.
The product is now a disaster, not only it doesn’t perform well, now someone ruined it’s ingrown preservation system with the acid. -
When not working on my own products, I also work as a EU cosmetic safety assessor.
As you want to sell your products in UK, this document should be helpful:
http://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/PDF/?uri=CELEX:32013D0674&from=EN
At point 3.3.2. you get all the guidance regarding microbiological quality.A few questions to ask:
- to the supplier of your raw materials, is there a preservative in the raw material? That happens more often than people think with plant extracts.
- to the competition, have thay had their products safety assessed?Also, you will be making a product applicable in the eye area. If you check in the document above and the main body of cosmetic law for EU, the - http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=OJ:L:2009:342:0059:0209:en:PDF - you product will fall into the highest microbial control category for cosmetics.
The category comprises of: products for <3 yrs old, mucous membranes applicable, eye area applicable. (if you ever give samples to a micro lab, you need to let them know that your product belongs to this higher safety control because they have different ways of performing the tests).
If you have any more questions here, I’m happy to answer. If you need someone to work with on getting all the legal aspects of the product correct and produce a cosmetic product safety report, I’ll happily be of service.
-
Regardless of cost and effort….. Show, don’t tell.
Buy a domain. Get a professional email. No need for a website.
Ask for ingredient samples. Make products in your kitchen or at your PhD lab if you still got access. Make more products. If anybody asks, don’t tell, show them the samples you created yourself.
Go to all kinds of cosmetics trade shows. Doesn’t matter if it’s for industry or for beautitians and hairdressers. Just go, talk to people and let them hear you say the right stuff, let them see you talk sense.
Always show, never tell.
You’ll be fine sooner than you think. And once they’ve seen enough, they’ll start trusting your word.
-
Hi, if it looks bad, it smells even worse. Almost as if the purpose was to make the customer feel like they’re being treated with heavy duty chemicals in a perverse marketing way.
The prices are:
5kg container 146USD/KG
25kg
85USD/KG
http://www.biosiltech.comIt’s from US, so you should get them cheaper, as I’m getting the shipment to Europe included in the price.
I like your point on the combination of peeling and brightening.
-
Still on the project, the Phytic Acid sample is on it’s way.
Just for the reference, LOI of the newer generation of the product:
Aqua, Lactic Acid, Propylene Glycol, Paraffinum Liquidum, Ceteary Alcohol, Salicylic Acid, Arbutin, Kojic Acid, Retinol, Polysorbate 20, Titanium Dioxide, Ceteareth-12, Sodium Cetearyl Sulfate, Alumina, Phytic Acid, Phenoxyethanol, Benzyl Alcohol, Silica, Potassium Sorbate, Sodium Ascorbate, Sodium Metabisulfite, Ethylhexylglycerin, Phyllantus Emblica, Fruit Extract, Sodium Polyacrylate, Tocopherol.
(that one inspired me to put the Lactic Acid up to 15%)
—
A picture of how the products look:
http://postimg.org/image/4dlcyzax9/
(the original below, the newer one listed in this post above)
One can lean towards assuming this is retinol powder colour:
http://www.skinactives.com/images/D/retinyl_acetate_72.jpgI’ve been on the topic for quite a while.
Am I to assume that the LOI is insincere? The reason I skipped the Phytic initially was because of it’s place in the LOI. I assumed it was there as a claim ingredient.
I mean the only proven effective concentration of Phytic Acid in a product I came across is 10%.
The manufacturer claims safety up to 20% and 1% vs. 1% equivalent effect with Glycolic Acid.Will certainly post my updates after I give the Phytic a try.
-
@Bobzchemist. Is there a name for the method that I could read about? Or is it just distillation?
@David, I followed the actives but it’s true that other ingredients are different. That company has since remade the cream with a completely different set of excipients and it still performs just as well. Hence, my initial assumption that I have to focus on the actives.
-
Thank you for the comments,
Bob, I had a feeling I used a wrong surfactant altogether. Thanks for pointing out that the level could be the issue.Belassi, I missed that one. I remember how the client initially described the product saying that we want to minimise moisturising properties as they will interfere with the peeling effect. So, I’m glad you spotted this.Another area where I’m lookig for an answer is the Retinol level. I still can’t find a definite answer on whether Retinol itself works as a peeling agent. I’m coming across contradicting opinions.Would one of you be able to shed some light on this?