[nkpalaci]

In case anyone comes here looking for answers:
For me, the solutions were:

• Use a stand and clamp to hold the minipro.
• Add xanthan gel to the stirrer, not before.

Best regards!

[nkpalaci]

It may be simpler if you research the degradation point of each oil/ester and melting point of waxes or others (cetearyl alcohol 50-60°) 🙂

[nkpalaci]

Thanks for your reply, Perry. I’ll check out that too.

Apologies again 🙂

[nkpalaci]

Hi guys, sorry for the inconvenience.
Could some of you help me with a word about this? Please 🙏
@Perry44 @Graillotion @Aniela @ketchito @catherine.pratt @ggpetrov

[nkpalaci]

One detail. F n°2 seems bubble-free, but I let a small layer dehydrate and after two days, several small bubbles were visible.
I know time is valuable, but any help would be appreciated.

[nkpalaci]

Hi everyone! Follow up to the thread.

https://chemistscorner.com/cosmeticsciencetalk/discussion/update-emulsifiers-and-bubbles/

😄

[nkpalaci]

It’s not entirely clear to me why it was written in the last century, they have a different style haha. Among all the times he repeats the same thing, in one part he says “saponified palmitic acid and saponified stearic <div>acid being soaps of the class consisting of Sodium and potassium soaps, with from approximately 5 to 10 parts by weight of potassium Soap being present in said saponaceous portion to each”. I interpret that the saponization is separate, but I think it could very well not be, just that I’ve never read about it before, maybe it’s a risky task. I can’t understand how much % of the stearic / palmitic acid I could use, I don’t want to make a rock.</div>

Anyway, your message with the forum thread is great!!

I haven’t continued with the cream yet because I have to buy many materials at the same time, I live at the end of the world. I will try to update.

Thanks!!

[nkpalaci]

(Sorry, I don’t know what happened in the previous post)!

Hi Aniela, I’m new to buffers and I have my doubts, but I’ll share the following with you.

At the beginning I did pH tests with 1.96 g of sodium citrate in 90 ml water and 0.22 g of citric acid diluted in 10 ml water, adding one ml of citric acid to the 90 ml solution of sodium citrate. It could be a good way for you to test your aqueous phase.

It will depend on your formula, if you already have a high pH due to, for example, anionic surfactants, using the mixture seems unnecessary and just using an acid would be enough.

I don’t buffer all the products and the pH can take a little time to stabilize so my tests were first barely mixing, then 12 hrs and then several days.

🙂

[nkpalaci]

<font style=”vertical-align: inherit;”><font style=”vertical-align: inherit;”><font style=”vertical-align: inherit;”><font style=”vertical-align: inherit;”>Hi Aniela, I’m new to buffers and I have my doubts, but I’ll share the following with you. </font></font></font></font>

<font style=”vertical-align: inherit;”><font style=”vertical-align: inherit;”><font style=”vertical-align: inherit;”><font style=”vertical-align: inherit;”>At the beginning I did pH tests with 1.96 g of sodium citrate in 90 ml of water and 0.22 g of citric acid diluted in 10 ml of water, adding one ml of citric acid to the 90 ml of sodium citrate. </font></font></font></font>

<font style=”vertical-align: inherit;”><font style=”vertical-align: inherit;”><font style=”vertical-align: inherit;”><font style=”vertical-align: inherit;”>It could be a good way for you to test your aqueous phase. </font></font></font></font>

<font style=”vertical-align: inherit;”><font style=”vertical-align: inherit;”><font style=”vertical-align: inherit;”><font style=”vertical-align: inherit;”>It will depend on your formula, if you already have a high pH due to, for example, anionic surfactants, using the mixture seems unnecessary and just using an acid would be enough. </font></font></font></font>

<font style=”vertical-align: inherit;”><font style=”vertical-align: inherit;”><font style=”vertical-align: inherit;”><font style=”vertical-align: inherit;”>I don’t buffer all the products and the pH can take a little time to stabilize so my tests were first barely mixing, then 12 hrs and then several days.</font></font></font></font>

I hope I’m helping you 🙂

[nkpalaci]

Interesting,

It seems that this controversial emulsifier, even though it is called SE, must be used with others. At that pH value, nobody would want to destabilize a formula that much, I think.

well, I’m just learning…

It is probably used a lot because it is very cheap, in a store the cost is 5kg for $40 us haha!

thanks for your comments!

[nkpalaci]

@Graillotion I have knowledge about the pH of the skin, I have no doubts about its importance.

I also understand now that if the emulsifier Glyceryl Stereate (or monostearate) SE is pH 8.5, being alkaline like a soap, this would unbalance the proper pH of the skin.

Now, like @ggpetrov I wonder how is it possible that a large majority of professional creams use this emulsifier without that premise of damaging the skin due to pH?

When I mentioned that I have seen a teacher (who is a chemist and not from the internet, just in case), work with this emulsifier, as always the final pH is evaluated and it is in accordance with the skin of the face. Why then does it emulsify and also have a final pH close to 5?

We agree that the industry can be misleading to sell raw materials.

_____

Regarding the question you asked me about the sodium content in a cream, do you know anything about the alteration of an emulsion by adding sodium benzoate? (I know it’s not a professional preservative, don’t be mad haha).

• This reply was modified 5 months, 1 week ago by  nkpalaci.

[nkpalaci]

Hello everyone and thanks for your responses! Sorry for not answering this sooner, I didn’t get any notification in my email or inbox on the page.

@Aniela the last formulation with which I had thickness problems

which even increased emulsifier and co-emulsifier is:

I made the mistake of adding 15% more water due to possible evaporation, which I did not measure correctly and perhaps is the cause of the thickness, although previous creams without that 15% had also been more liquid and with bubbles.

- 14% carrier oils

- 4.5% olivem 1000

- 4.5% cetearyl alcohol

- 0.2% xanthan gum

- 0.05% hyaluronic acid

- 3% propanediol

- 1% niacinamide

- 1% vit. E

- 1% preservative

- 0.3% essential oils

- sodium citrate and citric acid like buffer

- 68% water

The cream turned out like a lotion.

@ggpetro thanks for your insight into the machinery I am using, it was thanks to this forum. Is it possible that you could share some links to information beyond those on this website?

@Graillotion thanks you very much for the specifications!! I will try incorporating polymers at the end.

I only have one question, why do you shear again if you previously mentioned that at low shear temperature the lamellar emulsion is damaged? Isn’t it enough to continue with the agitator? I’m worried about the almost imperceptible, but annoying bubbles.

I hope you don’t mind my delay and I can receive some response hahaha

Greetings!

😄

chemistscorner.com

Page not found - Chemists Corner

Page not found - Chemists Corner

[nkpalaci]

Hello everyone and thanks for your responses! Sorry for not answering this sooner, I didn’t get any notification in my email or inbox on the page.

@Aniela the last formulation with which I had thickness problems

which even increased emulsifier and co-emulsifier is:

- 14% carrier oils

- 5% olivem 1000

- 4.5% cetearyl alcohol

- 0.2% xanthan gum

- 0.05% hyaluronic acid

- 3% propanediol

- 1% niacinamide

- 1% vit. E

- 1% preservative

- 0.3% essential oils

- sodium citrate and citric acid like buffer

- 68% water

The cream turned out like a lotion.

@ggpetrov thanks for your insight into the machinery I am using, it was thanks to this forum. Is it possible that you could share some links to information beyond those on this website?

@Graillotion thanks you very much for the specifications!! I will try incorporating polymers at the end.

I only have one question, why do you shear again if you previously mentioned that at low shear temperature the lamellar emulsion is damaged? Isn’t it enough to continue with the agitator? I’m worried about the almost imperceptible, but annoying bubbles.

I hope you don’t mind my delay and I can receive some response hahaha

Greetings!😄

[nkpalaci]

I understand,
thank you!😄

[nkpalaci]

Hi MiaPharma, thanks for your reply.
I don’t use polymers in these products.

I’m going to do a test by increasing the HA! 🙂 thanks!

[nkpalaci]

I’m sorry; I still don’t really know how to engage properly in this forum.
I was just asking if any of those elements or their combinations make more sense than the others for thickening a cream without creating too much occlusion.
I’ve done so many tests that I was just trying to get some input from the experience of forum participants to avoid further material loss.
Thanks you for your response 🙂

[nkpalaci]

Absolutely right, sorry.

My question is if you have any advice or suggestions on the formulas I wrote or procedure to improve the bubble problem? Thanks 🙂

*I appreciated the above helps so I didn’t want to leave the information hanging. I also gave details innocently thought it may help someone else following the thread. Sorry again.

[nkpalaci]

Thanks @catherine.pratt 🙂 , I’m not looking for a gel cream for now, but it sounds interesting, I’ll look into that.

I’m not really too interested in GSC SE, especially after the conversation in this thread. I’ve only seen it so much that I wanted to try it, I won’t buy it anymore, I asked more out of curiosity.

Thanks to everyone for their interest, I study day by day because now I have the opportunity, I appreciate a group like this. When I have good news I will leave an update here.

[nkpalaci]

I checked the safety data sheet and it mentions pH 8.5 (3% water), I attached the image.

I also read that it contains sodium stereate and/or potassium stereate which are high pH, ​​am I correct? I partially understand what you are saying, but why would you not use this emulsifier on your skin if the final formula has a regulated pH that is safe for the skin? I am not defending it, I am just raising doubts, I am not familiar with the subject.

Besides, I did not write my formula because I have written it before on the forum and I have tested a lot, even the most puritanical ones, but speaking of sodium, I have used sodium benzoate as a secondary preservative in the tests (could this be it?!!) and I think I have used it in all of them!

I find it very curious that when use the stirrer the formula changes… tomorrow will be another day and I will go back to doing tests.

😰

[nkpalaci]

Great! Thanks for the clarification.

GS SE is described as having a pH between 5 - 7. Are you sure about the high pH? I’ve seen this used a while back, by a professor who is a chemical engineer. 😮

PCP is not available where I live unfortunately.

I’m also looking into GSC (Glyceryl Stearate Citrate), it seems like an interesting option as a robust emulsifier.

I’ll keep trying! Thanks for the support.🙋‍♀️

[nkpalaci]

Wonderful!

Thank you very much.

🤞😄

[nkpalaci]

Hahaha, I have never stopped using it and believe me, I know how problematic it is to work with an emulsifier like Olivem 1000. I have worked with other emulsifiers before and never had so many problems, but I also had different blenders machines.

My clients want emulsions approved as organic cosmetics, they pay more than what the industry pays, but they buy less quantity.

I also tried this new one called Polyaquol 2w (Polyglyceryl-2 stearate (and) Glyceryl stearate (and) Stearyl alcohol). It has better sensory, but the same thing happened with the bubbles, so the only thing I can think of is that the problem is mine in the handling of the homogenizer.

Although now that you mention it, it makes sense that the emulsion loses consistency with the agitator if the emulsifying quality is bad.

Are these SSG or PCP too thick for the face? Will they create too occlusive a layer?

The other reason the industry does not make organic products is the cost. It is absurdly more expensive. What do you think?

Thanks again for your help 😄

[nkpalaci]

Thanks for replying. I have “tall” beakers. And all my emulsions have the same problem, so I didn’t want to write the formula.

Generally I’m using:

70% or so water (including the one I use for solutions) or 60% and 10% hydrosol

3-5% Olivem 1000 or Polyaquol

2-4% fatty alcohol (cetyl alcohol, cetearyl alcohol, usually)

12% - 14% carrier oils

0.1% - 0.2% xanthan gum

0.1% - 0.2% hyaluronic acid

2 - 5% glycerin

3% propanediol

3% - 5% vitamins / plant actives (in glycerin, water or powders)

1% preservative

And buffer sodium citrate / citric acid

I most often add the hydrated xanthan gum and hyaluronic acid to the hot aqueous phase.

I added it in the stirrer once, but the same thing happened. The emulsion became less consistent with the stirrer (I don’t know why) so I went back to the homogenizer.

add photo.

Thanks @Graillotion

• This reply was modified 5 months, 3 weeks ago by  nkpalaci.

[nkpalaci]

hi! @emma1985 @Graillotion (sorry if write something wrong, english isn’t my first language)

I’ve had a lot of problems with bubbles, I’m desperate. 😰

I am using Minipro homogenizer and Overhead Stirrer Mixer 0-2000 Vevor (the cheapest). I have made dozens of emulsions, I still have almost imperceptible bubbles, emulsions have been destabilized and they look bad.

I have changed the percentage of emulsifier (between 3% and 5% 70°C), type of emulsifier, type of alcohols, polymers in the hot or cooling phase and I still have bubbles. Also way of holding the homogenizer, speeds, agitator speeds, time.

I have noticed 2 things:

- The beaker has a small curvature that does not keep the head completely firm.

- My cheap shaker has a small oval movement. Could it cause bubbles?

When I stirrer to cool the cream it loses viscosity, so the last two times I homogenized again after stirrer for a couple of seconds.

I kindly ask if you could tell me specifically what prevents bubbles from forming when preparing your emulsions? and at what minipro speed do you work?, considering that there are 6.

Thank you 🙂

• This reply was modified 5 months, 3 weeks ago by  nkpalaci.
• This reply was modified 5 months, 3 weeks ago by  nkpalaci.
• This reply was modified 5 months, 3 weeks ago by  nkpalaci.

[nkpalaci]

Hello @Aniela , thank you for responding!

I usually work between pH to 4.8 - 5.8, I didn’t remember having read what you say about Olivem so I looked for the sheet again and they recommend between 4.5 to 8. I clarify this so that there are no doubts in a future reader/formulator.

TECHNICAL DATA • INCI: Cetearyl Olivate, Sorbitan Olivate • Ivory flakes.

• Recommended dosage level: 3-5% as the only emulsifier.

• Stability pH: 4.5-8.0

• Compatible with all preservatives. • Polar chain esters and lipids facilitate the formation of liquid crystals.

Let me know if you have any suggestions regarding pH.

Today I will prepare the formula mentioned before with all its recommendations.

Greetings to everybody and thanks!