[Abu-Hafss]

I performed centrifuge test on my earlier formulation, and yes it failed.

After some experiments, I came up with following changes in the Oil Phase and eliminating Cyclomethicone (which was actually not Cyclomethicone, it was some viscous liquid):

Cetyl Alcohol 2.8%
C12-15 Alkyl Benzoate 3%
CCT 6%
Dimethicone 3%
Shea Butter 1%
GS & PEG 100 Stearate 1.3%
Glyceryl Stearate SE 0.8%

GS & PEG-100 Stearate is 10% of the Oil contents.
Glyceryl Stearate SE is to lower the HLB of the emulsifier system.
Also added some Carbopol, for increasing stability.
This change is quite promising but Soaping Effect is still there.

Now I am considering to incorporate:
a) some silicone-based anti foam
b) waxy ester Cetyl Palmitate to replace Cetyl Alcohol

I would like to have valued comments and tips, please.

[Abu-Hafss]

Please show us weight or percentage of each ingredient what you are using. Otherwise, no one can suggest you any improvements.

[Abu-Hafss]

In the meantime, I had done this:

Water q.s.
EDTA 0.1%
Glycerin 5%
Sodium Lactate 3%

Cetyl Alcohol 3.2%
IPM 1%
C12-15 Alkyl Benzoate 4%
Dimethicone 2%
C/C Triglycride 5%
Shea Butter 2%
GS & PEG 100 Stearate 1.5%

Cyclomethicone 1%
Vitamin E 0.1%
Germall Plus 0.5%
Fragrance 1%
IPM 1% (to mix Fragrance oil)
PQ7 0.5% (dissolved in some water)

This reduced the Soaping Effect around 40%.
IPM could not help fragrance, and the final blend was thinned.

• This reply was modified 1 month, 2 weeks ago by  Abu-Hafss. Reason: Missed one ingredient

[Abu-Hafss]

I am considering to try some emulsifier like Glyceryl Oleate or Cetearyl Glucoside. Would that be helpful in getting creamy/pearlescent texture? Considering following, what percentages of GDS and Glyceryl Oleate should be used:

SCI - 10%
SL Sarcosinate - 10%
CAPB - 10%
Sunflower Oil - 5%
HEC - 1%

[Abu-Hafss]

A quick update.

I changed oil to Sunflower Oil and tried with SLES+AOS+CAPB. Got perfect smoothness with 1% GDS only, though without pearlescent effect.

I’ll get back after trying with other surfactants.

[Abu-Hafss]

Respected Sir

I know very well the process of making soap. I misunderstood your first reply, I thought you were addressing my issue.

There are lots of creamy body washes out there made from surfactants. They have 5-10% Oil emulsified using suitable emulsifier, which gives the creamy look to the blend. I have tried and got creamy blend but the texture turns out to be coarse.

[Abu-Hafss]

Hi Dr. Mike

What I understand about your approach is that first we convert Oil into soap solution and then mix into the blend of the surfactants. Am I right?

Next, do we get the same benefits/results as what we get by adding oil to surfactants using emulsification?

Lastly, what are the advantages of your approach other than the cost of base would be much cheaper than the emulsifiers?

[Abu-Hafss]

1) Your point number 1 is a simple reply to my question, to simply change the fragrance source.

2) My targeted commercial brand’s fragrance fades away after 2+ hours. I do understand the fragrance in lotions/creams are there just to make pleasant application experience and they are not an alternative to perfume. And I personally think 30 minutes are quite enough. But, the issue is that the consumers do not understand it. They simply consider it as a negative point.

[Abu-Hafss]

With due respect, I am not talking about formulating a new fragrance. I meant to say is that I am using a preformulated blend of fragrance. The fragrance projection is quite good but lasts for 30+ minutes. What I want to know is that what formulation strategies should I adapt to make the fragrance last longer.

[Abu-Hafss]

Can a silicone-based anti-foam be used to eliminate soaping effect?

[Abu-Hafss]

Thanks for the clarification and your suggestion.
As for the rheology modifiers other than gums, do they include Versathix, Crothix or PEG-150 Distearate?

Next, I have a question here.
Lets say a combination of emulsifiers A+B (High HLB + Low HLB) performs well (no soaping) with a specific oil phase. Assuming no Stearic Acid used, will that combination of emulsifiers perform well with a different oil phase? Of course, the percentages of A & B will correspond to the new oil phase.

[Abu-Hafss]

So what you are saying is that, if I don’t want that fatty alcohol residue then simply don’t use the fatty alcohols for thickening the lotion and use some thickening gum instead. But the latter won’t provide the benefit of reducing TEWL. Okay, understood but then how good quality lotions (with no soaping effect) mention Cetyl Alcohol, Stearyl Alcohol, Cetearyl Alcohol or even Stearic Acid in their ingredients list? Surely, they are dealing with soaping effect in some technical manner as discussed here https://chemistscorner.com/cosmeticsciencetalk/discussion/the-low-down-on-soaping-the-hows-and-whys-in-lotion/

[Abu-Hafss]

a) You suggested to remove Glyceryl Stearate SE and increase GS & PEG-100 Stearate, instead. I have used only GS & PEG-100 Stearate 1.5% earlier, but with Oils at 15% and Soaping Effect was present. My understanding is that, using emulsifier more than 10% of of Oils is more likely to cause soaping effect.

b) You suggested to remove Glyceryl Stearate SE (bcz it contains anionic emulsifier Potassium Stearate) and use Ceteareth-20 (which is a non-ionic emulsifier and has HLB 15.2). Which means GS & PEG-100 Stearate 1.3% + Ceteareth-20 0.3-0.8%.

I am little confused here or maybe I have wrong concept of HLB. At 1.3% GS & PEG-100 (HLB 11) it balances with RHLB of the Oil phase. If we add even a small amount of Ceteareth-20, it will increase the HLB of emulsifiers more than the RHLB of the Oil Phase. Kindly, correct me if I am wrong.

[Abu-Hafss]

Simply, when applied, initially it spreads easily and smoothly. Then finally it starts building white film, which becomes more with further rubbing. And when left, it vanishes after some time.

[Abu-Hafss]

Yeah, that is normal but it not desired or preferred. So there must be some ways/tricks to eliminate it. I know only a few of them, and they didn’t worked for me perfectly. Surely, I am lacking something. That’s why I am here to seek help of expertise.

[Abu-Hafss]

Correct, actually after lowering the HLB with 0.8% Glyceryl Stearate SE the soaping reduced quite a bit. No initial soaping, it appears after some spreading.

My antifoam is in transit, expected to reach me tomorrow. Any tips?

[Abu-Hafss]

Can I replace Glyceryl Stearate SE with Span 80?

[Abu-Hafss]

Okay, so would 1% Cetyl Alcohol + 2% Cetyl Plamitate be fine?

As mentioned earlier, I incorporated Glyceryl Stearate SE (HLB 5.8) to lower the HLB of the emulsifier system — (a measure to reduce soaping). Replacing it with Ceteareth-20 (HLB 15.2) will increase the HLB.

Increasing GS/PEG-100 Stearate will increase soaping.

• This reply was modified 3 weeks, 5 days ago by  Abu-Hafss.

[Abu-Hafss]

What I have are micro granules, not capsuled. The label says “100% RAW, ORGANIC, NO ADDITIVES”.

[Abu-Hafss]

Here is procedure:
The Oil Phase and Water Phase are heated separated until the solids in oil phase melt.
Then pour the Water Phase into Oil Phase. After gentle stirring, high shear blending with stick blender for 30-60 seconds. Then manual stirring until <40°C.
Next, adjust pH and finally add the Cool Down ingredients.

What made you guess, the blend would not be stable for long?

[Abu-Hafss]

I formulated today, so far it is.

BTW, do you have any doubts?

[Abu-Hafss]

NO

[Abu-Hafss]

I followed your order and it worked like a charm.
Bundle of Thanks 🙂

[Abu-Hafss]

I have tried earlier without PQ-7 and D-Panthenol, the blend was crystal clear.

As for your suggested mixing order, what I understand is as below:
a) Heat Phase: SCI + SLSarcosinate + 2.5% CAPB + Some Water
b) Fragrance Phase: 7.5% CAPB + 1% Fragrance Oil
c) Water Phase: Remaining Water + EDTA + PQ7
d) When (a) is completely dissolved and cooled down, add (c) to (a). [CHECK if the solution remains clear]
e) Add (b) to main blend. [CHECK again]
f) Add D-Panthenol. [CHECK again]
g) Add Versathix

Is it what you want me to do?

[Abu-Hafss]

Oh, I apologise, it should be PQ-7.