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Will Carbomer 940 thicken my shampoo?
Please could someone advise me on a thickener for my shampoo.
I have tried salt- didn’t thicken. I tried Xanthan gum but it’s not a nice consistency (snotty).
Will Carbomer 940 work? I have an idea that HEC will split the shampoo over time.
Recipe:
Water 62.3%
Sodium C14-16 alpha Olefin sulphanate 12%
Coco glucoside 7.5%
Glycerin 5%
CAPB 5%
PQ 7- 3%
PQ 10 - 0.2%
Dimethicone 3%
Preservative (LGP) 0.5%
Citric acid 0.2%
EO blend 1%
Thank you for taking the time to advise me.
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15 Replies
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If you remove Glycerin or use it at not more than 0.1%, you might get a better viscosity response when using salt or any other thickener. Now, since you’re using dinethicone, then a suspending agent is needed. I’d use Carbopol 980 instead of the 940, to avoid benzene traces.
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Hi Ketchito. Thank you for your response. I changed the recipe and got a better result. I increased the Anionic and Amphoteric SF and decreased the Glucoside. Adding that to the water. Brought down the pH and then thickened with salt. I found that I could go up to 4%. Do you think I’m treading on thin ice?
I dropped the Xanthan gum (maybe that caused problems- don’t know). Texture is much better.
Recipe as follows:
Aqua 43.5%
Hostapur AOS 40 -20%
Decyl 3%
CAPB 19%
Citric- 0.1%
Salt -4 % ( Too high?)
Tocopherol acetate- 0.3%
EO- 1%
Allantoin- 2% ( because sF are mid range, I thought to protect the scalp- will probably wash off but I have lots.😊
Glycerine 5%. Will take your advice and drop it to a lower %.
Guar Hydroxypropyltrimonium chloride 0.1% . Keeping it low because it’s Cationic. It also coats the hair a little and maybe not good for a Clarifying shampoo.
LGP- 0.5%
Polyquaternium 7-0.5%.
It’s a strange sequence but I needed to see when a problem occurred.
The Carbopol -is it then for suspension more than thickening. Also, would you use it when using PEG 40 Dimethicone? I would like to add it to my next shampoo. ( not the clarifying one).
Sorry for all the questions and thanks again for your help.
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4% is too much salt for my taste, but if it works for you, then just put a sample in the fridge to see if there’s no precipitation over time.
I’d add Guar HPTC at the very start (before surfactants), so it has time and room to expand and hydrate. A bit of an acid helps to speed up the process.
Carbopol here is your best friend if you want to suspend a silicone oil (it can also thicken your product, depending on the amount). If you use an ethoxylated silicone, then you don’t need it.
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I hope it’s okay to ask here but are there not any issues or complexing concerns when combining carbopol (anionic polymer) with the polyquats? Does it come down to the ratios or charge density?
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Hello @ketchito , I am gonna jump here and ask about that precipitation if I may 🙂 . I did my sample and put it in a fridge. Over time (hours to day I think) it started to form these solid pieces. After, it completely solidified.
It is very basic formula - 8% Sodium coco sulfate, 3% cocabetaine, 3% coco gluside, 0.2% GHPTC (I add that at the very beginning, mix for for some to disperse, acidify, mix for 20 minutes), chelating agent, after non ionic, ampho and anionic. Heat, mix, cool, pH adjust and add salt, presertive, fragrance and colour.
When removed from the fridge it turns back to nice liquid.
Any thoughts? Thank you 🙂
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This reply was modified 1 month ago by Paprik.
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Hi @paprik! I believe that’s your coco sulfate (kraft point issues). Would you do some test replacing it with SLES?
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Hey buddy, thanks for the answer 🙂
I do not have SLES.
Any way how to improve it? (Will also google it and do some research).-
This reply was modified 1 month ago by Paprik.
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Could you try with CAPB instead of Coco-betaine?
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This reply was modified 1 month ago by
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This reply was modified 1 month ago by
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@evchem2 That can actually happen. That’s why it’s recommended to add both polymers appart from each other during the process, and having always surfactants being added in between. UL use this strategy often. Now, there’s another very interesting way and that’s adding a specific ratio of cationic/anionic polymer directly at the start which, instead of forming a precipitate, they form a gel phase called polyectrolyte complex which has interesting conditioning and rheological properties. Tresemme advertises this tech as way to mend split-ends.
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I don’t have access to Carbopol 980. Will 990 or 940 work? I do have Acrypol ET-1 (liquid) but I can’t get that to work. Thank you for your help in this.
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Carbopol 940 is equivalent to the 980, but it has some residual benzene that was used as solvent.
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Oh horror! After about 6 weeks my above shampoo split. I have decided on Carbopol Ultrez 21 as a Carbomer. Starting steps-
Water 52.3%
EDTA 0.2%
pH between 6-7
Carbomer 2%
Let stand for 30 min with periodic mixing (manual)
Add AOS 10%
Coco glucoside 3%
CAPB 18%
Propandiol 1.3 3%
Hydrolysed Wheat protein 3%
PQ 7 3%
PQ 10 1%
Allantoin 0.3%
Argan oil 2% ( This was a later addition as comb through was terrible. I may have added to much at 2% as hair feels nice but perhaps weighted down).
Disperse 0.2% GHPC in 2% Dimethicone 350, then add.
Balance is EO and LGP.
Will the Carbopol stabilise the shampoo so it doesn’t split especially after adding the oil?
Can I use 2% of the water to dissolve the PQ 10 or will it cause problems because it’s not mixed with the Carbomer?
There are small (not a lot) insolubilised matter. I think it’s the Carbomer. I don’t know what to do to solubilise it. An option is to use Acrypol ET 1 (liquid).
Any help would be very appreciated.
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First thing: DEL any carbomer in your formula as that was your first error. Carbomers crash in presence of electrolytes and shampoos such as yours are chock full of them, so the carbomer never had a chance. Second problem: all acrylic polymers are anionic and you have THREE cationic polymers in this - another reason for your carbomer failure. The only one compatible is the polyquaternium-7, so you’d lose the other two and increase that one. Use instead acrylates copolymer (Synthalen W600 from 3V Sigma is best) to build viscosity and stabilize & suspend pearlescence - or even rocks, as its yield point is that high. Fortunately PQ-7 also provides the best wet-comb/dry-comb, so you end up with a better formula. I cannot understand your wet-comb problem while PQ-7 is involved. Finally DEL propanediol (???) and revise order of addition: cationic first / amphoteric / anionic / builders / other stuff. Read Des Goddard’s book if you can find it.
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This reply was modified 2 weeks, 2 days ago by chemicalmatt.
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This reply was modified 2 weeks, 2 days ago by
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Thank you so much for your response. The shampoo that split was the previous shampoo without the Carbomer. I do take your point however and will remove Hydrolysed wheat protein and PQ10.
The ultrez 21 did thicken the shampoo however but the concern is -will it split later on. I will make another the same as above but with these changes and using the Carbomer UL 21. I really would like to to have put in the GHPC (0.2%) as it helps with knots. To what % can I increase the PQ 7?
I have Acrypol ET 1 -would that be a better choice than the Carbomer Ultrez 21?
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