Why some water float above product?

General

Why some water float above product?

Posted by Fekher on November 3, 2022 at 5:40 am

Making cream scrub with:

Water qsp
Kaolin clay 10%
BTMS 2%
GMS 2%
Oil 4%
CARBOMER 0.3%
TEA 0.3%
Perfume
Preservative

Some water float above the product, so I want to know what happened and the reason then the best solution to solve the problem.

@ngarayeva001 @Perry @Paprik @Pharma @chemicalmatt @Chemist77 @Abdullah

ngarayeva001 replied 2 years, 1 month ago 6 Members · 20 Replies
20 Replies

Paprik

Member
November 3, 2022 at 8:40 am

Short answer - Product is not stable.

Longer answer -
Carbomer - anionic
BTMS - cationic
GMS - non-ionic LOW HLB.
Hope you see the problem?

What kind of preservative are you using?
OldPerry

Member
November 3, 2022 at 12:20 pm

I’ll add that it could also be the result of condensation dripping back down on the surface but you didn’t explain the situation enough so that might not be relevant.
Abdullah

Member
November 3, 2022 at 12:47 pm

Did you fill the product when it was rome temperature or higher?

Is it BTMS 25?
If yes, as Paprik said it will not be stable.

Remove carbomer and and GMS and increase BTMS amount if viscosity not enough.
Fekher

Member
November 3, 2022 at 5:41 pm

@Paprik nice explanation however when I used only GMS with CARBOMER I have the same problem.(supposed their is no stability issue for no ionic with anionic not?)
@Perry what details you need to give better advice?
@Abdullah I fill the product both in room temperature and in higher.
Yes BTMS 25
The origin formulation contains GMS and CARBOMER may be increasing their level better then using only BTMS.
Paprik

Member
November 3, 2022 at 5:52 pm

@Fekher

I bet you are aiming to create O/W emulsion, but you are using LOW HLB emulsifier that creates W/O. That obviously destabilizes your formula.
Other non-ionic HIGH HLB emulsifier should be your choice - or something like Cetearyl Alcohol.

Carbomer (if you’re using 940 or 980) is very sensitive material. Any sign of electrolyte and it’s gone. You are not mixing only non-ionic with cationic, but anionic and cationic. Those have charges, they are ionic.

Why the guys are asking about the temperature, filling and condensation - If you fill the product warm/hot and close it off some water will evaporate and condensate on the lid [This is basically unpreserved water]. You need to make sure you pack the product at room temperature - preferable the next day. Or do not cover the product - or use some mesh cover or paper cover.
Or it is packaging problem and you need to check if it seals properly.

And what preservative are you using?
As you should be formulating in slightly acidic pH, the carbomer (940;980) is pointless.
Fekher

Member
November 3, 2022 at 6:36 pm

@Paprik preservative is methylchloroisothiazolinone and methylisothiazolinone. Why using w/o emulsion destabilizes my formula?
Paprik

Member
November 3, 2022 at 7:59 pm

@Fekher

I am sorry, I really do not want to let you down, but if you do not understand concept of O/W ; W/O and HLB, you should really focus on more basic stuff.

It looks like you are mixing a lot of things without knowing the chemistry and principles. Try to focus on creating O/W emulsions (creams - anionic or nonionic), get knowledge about emulsifiers and their properties, oils/lipids, easy to incorporate actives, stabilizers, types of emulsions etc…
After that you can move on onto something more complicated.

I would recommend taking @perry ‘s course. He will teach you everything you need to know to start a proper formulation journey.

I mean this as a motivation, not to disappoint you. Hope you understand.
Fekher

Member
November 3, 2022 at 8:26 pm

@Paprik actually I know about hlb o/w, w/o emulsion even I know that anionic aren’t compatible with anionic just forgot that neutralised CARBOMER is anionic, however I don’t know scientific information that says kaolin will not be stable with w/o as you said.
Paprik

Member
November 3, 2022 at 8:39 pm

I didn’t say Kaolin will not be stable in w/o emulsion.
But you are using low HLB emulsifier in o/w emulsion.

But for the record, it would require very stable emulsion to keep Kaolin dispersed, plus it is hard to preserve.

Anyhow, I shared my opinion, hope this helped.
Happy formulating.
evchem2

Member
November 3, 2022 at 8:42 pm

You have a very small oil phase, so w/o which is already a difficult system to stabilize is even more unlikely to form because of the high amount of internal (dispersed) phase vs the extremely low continuous phase, on top of the other issues already mentioned.
Fekher

Member
November 3, 2022 at 9:11 pm

@Paprik thanks for your precious opinion and what preservative do you suggest if mine is not adequate?
Awesome explanation @EVchem
Abdullah

Member
November 4, 2022 at 1:55 am

Fekher said:

@Paprik nice explanation however when I used only GMS with CARBOMER I have the same problem.(supposed their is no stability issue for no ionic with anionic not?)
@Perry what details you need to give better advice?
@Abdullah I fill the product both in room temperature and in higher.
Yes BTMS 25
The origin formulation contains GMS and CARBOMER may be increasing their level better then using only BTMS.

Where did you get original formula from?

Was it exactly like this?
Was it also BTMS 25 and not 50?

I think what Paprik says is they ratio of your high hlb and low hlb surfactant.

You have 2% gms+ 1.5% fatty alcohol and only 0.5% BTMS as high hlb surfactant.

Have you made a version without GMS and carbomer?
Fekher

Member
November 4, 2022 at 7:46 pm

@Abdullah my colleague taked it from professional site, I guess it is not exactly the formulation.

It was BTMS 25

No I did not make version without GMS and carbomer

My plan is to change BTMS with ceteareth 25 I guess it will solve stability problem.

Carbomer add a lot for the product so I will try to keep it as much as possible ( If I work only with BTMS Wich has high hlb I guess the hlb of BTMS will be far from needed hlb=10 not?) and for sure with only BTMS I will not reach the good texture get it by using carbomer.
Abdullah

Member
November 5, 2022 at 2:15 am

The ratio of fatty alcohol and BTMS in BTMS 25 is at its best for stability and viscosity. Any extra GMS or fatty alcohol will reduce the stability.

If you are adding GMS with BTMS 25 then it is a good idea to add some high hlb like ceteareth 25 ( i prefer polyglyceryls) too.

For carbomer with BTMS, you can chick the compatibility.
Fekher

Member
November 5, 2022 at 8:05 pm

Thanks a lot @Abdullah @Paprik @EVchem for your precious comments wich helped me to have better product by using ceteareth 25 and delating BTMS.
@Abdullah i’am using acrypol 996 as carbomer and I guess it has some tolerance with BTMS in low level because I made cream with both and it seems pretty stable.
Abdullah

Member
November 6, 2022 at 2:01 am

Let me tell you a trick.

If you have low viscosity with 2% BTMS, you can use small amount of EDTA in water phase and it will increase the viscosity a lot without using any other thickener.

Also i suggest 0.05% NACL for viscosity and stability in BTMS formula.
Fekher

Member
November 6, 2022 at 1:24 pm

@Abdullah nice trick what level you suggest for EDTA?
Abdullah

Member
November 6, 2022 at 1:31 pm

0.1% or less
Fekher

Member
November 6, 2022 at 3:04 pm

@Abdullah thanks a lot may I will try it.
ngarayeva001

Member
November 7, 2022 at 7:19 pm

I don’t think it’s w/o. Especially with btms in it. As said above, stability issues. I would get rid of carbomer and use fatty alcohol thicker. And with presence of abrasive particles you want it thicker than a moisturizer because they would sink.