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What to avoid when using cationic emulsifiers…..
I am working on making a hand cream, a little drier, and it was suggested that I try a cationic emulsifier. As I only had Varisoft EQ 65 on hand, I attempted to pair it with 165 and Sepigel 305.
Seemed to have some type of failure in the process….as it really didn’t want to thicken.
What are the classic items you make sure are NOT in a formula using a cationic emulsifier? I did lower the pH down to the 4.7-4.8 range.
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22 Replies
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Normally the anionic ingredients. Some polymers / gelling agents are anionic, which i’d assume the polymer in Sepigel 305 to be.
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Don’t use chelating agents like EDTA or sodium phytate and citric acid. Adjust the pH with lactic acid. Use caprylhydroxamic acid if you need a chelating agent in the Product.
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@Abdullah Good point! Phytate certainly is a problem. Citric acid (useless as chelate = don’t use it), EDTA (at pH > 5) and GLDA (at pH > 4) can be but don’t have to be (keep their concentration as low as possible). Caprylhydroxamic acid (though personally, I despise it) would likely be the only official chelate possible. Certain polyphenols such as chlorogenic acid and EGCG may be used instead though they’re mostly only good for complexing iron ions.
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Abdullah said:Don’t use chelating agents like EDTA or sodium phytate and citric acid. Adjust the pH with lactic acid. Use caprylhydroxamic acid if you need a chelating agent in the Product.Thank you, per @Pharma recommendation….I have been lowering pH with lactic acid for quite a while now.
So I have all the above chelators….am I understanding correctly, for a (cationic) formula that will have a pH in the mid 4’s….the GLDA is the best choice? Just use it at say .1%, and not .2%? I do not have the capryhydroxamic acid.
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jemolian said:Normally the anionic ingredients. Some polymers / gelling agents are anionic, which i’d assume the polymer in Sepigel 305 to be.
What gelling agents are known to be compatible with cationics?
Zen?
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@Graillotion unfortunately the non-ionics. From the seppic range, only Solagum Tara but i find it stringy. Another one would be the common HEC.
Seppic brochure for reference. They listed the charge -> https://www.seppic.com/sites/seppic/files/2019/06/13/2019-seppic_index-beauty-care.pdf
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Yeah…I have HEC in my basket….actually….Hydroxypropylcellulose (HPC), as the seller’s description made it sound like it would be easier to work with (less clumping). Any thoughts on the difference there @jemolian ?
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@Graillotion i’ve not tried HPC before, though do take a look at the viscosity that it can have because they might not reach what you might need unless you use a higher percentage. If comparing the specs on lotioncrafter, the viscosity at 1% for HPC vs HEC, HEC would be higher, 1500 - 3000 cps vs 3400-5000 cps.
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jemolian said:@Graillotion i’ve not tried HPC before, though do take a look at the viscosity that it can have because they might not reach what you might need unless you use a higher percentage. If comparing the specs on lotioncrafter, the viscosity at 1% for HPC vs HEC, HEC would be higher, 1500 - 3000 cps vs 3400-5000 cps.
I am shooting for texture…not thickness….I can make viscosity elsewhere.
I like my products to have a gel hiding in the cream!
Thank You….I did not notice that…(maybe cuz I was not thinking about it as a viscosity agent). And now that you mention it….I already have plenty of viscosity…so maybe the HPC will be better for me!!!
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So other than HPC….considering I am looking more or less for a texturizer…how would you compare HPC and Siligel (INCI: Xanthan Gum, Lecithin, Sclerotium Gum, Pullulan)? @jemolian
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@Graillotion xanthan gum would be a no go, perhaps you can try the sclerotium gum if you have it on hand but based on what is described the skin feel might be very similar. Though sclerotium gum would be more expensive.
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I don’t think GLDA is compatible with cationic surfactants. You can check the compatibility first.
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@Graillotion I’d go with 0.1% GLDA. Assuming you were to use considerably more Varisoft EQ 65 makes incompatibilities rather unlikely. A minor drop in stability (lower zeta potential = higher risk of breaking/creaming/sedimentation etc.) is to be expected but I would wager that you couldn’t tell a difference.You might even get away with a small quantity of an anionic polymer. It will most likely be glued to the surfaces of the positively charged oil droplets. In that case, it will be necessary to include the gelling agent after homogenisation. This then will reduce zeta potential like GLDA does. Will it still increase viscosity? Dunno. Will it still ‘texturise’ your product? Dunno. Would a non-ionic polymer be the smarter choice? Most likely. What might be a good alternative apart from HPC? Maybe a silicone elastomer such as Dowsil EL-TIPS or a blend like Novatex MAT which comes with other ingredients you already use?
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Just an update for those playing along at home:
Next version….worked like a charm. (Working with VariSoft EQ 65 at 2% + 165 at 3%.)
Big differences were almost doubling the fatty alcohols (50/50 Cetyl and Behenyl blend), went from 2% to almost 4%. Reducing GLDA to .1%….and I think the kicker was….adding the Sepigel 305 post emulsion…and after the emulsion dropped below 60C.
Hey what would we do without the genius of Pharma on this forum???
I truly appreciate you! -
@Pharma can I ask for achieving what effect did you suggest silicone elastomer instead of HPC?
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@Graillotion did you add %0.1 active GLDA or solution?
If solution, how much GLDA is in the solution? -
Abdullah said:@Pharma can I ask for achieving what effect did you suggest silicone elastomer instead of HPC?
He did not suggest the silicone elastomer over HPC, it was what I had on hand. He simply said….it should work.
I will get HPC within a week, and will make the same formula with it. If texturally their is no difference… I would suspect the HPC version would ultimately be more stable…a year from now.
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Abdullah said:@Graillotion did you add %0.1 active GLDA or solution?
If solution, how much GLDA is in the solution?The .1% GLDA goes into the beaker first….then all the water goes in second….and so on and so forth. So all the water and the GLDA are in the beaker by themselves for a short amount of time…I guess I would consider that a solution.
……….Oh maybe I misunderstood your question…I use the liquid form, which is 50% active ingredient….so I guess in reality…I am using .05%.
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HPMC
https://www.sigmaaldrich.com/catalog/substance/hydroxypropylmethylcellulose12345900465311I Think Makingcosmetics have the 60,000 - 90,000cP version. Maybe you want to try it out.
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Graillotion said:Abdullah said:@Graillotion did you add %0.1 active GLDA or solution?
If solution, how much GLDA is in the solution?The .1% GLDA goes into the beaker first….then all the water goes in second….and so on and so forth. So all the water and the GLDA are in the beaker by themselves for a short amount of time…I guess I would consider that a solution.
……….Oh maybe I misunderstood your question…I use the liquid form, which is 50% active ingredient….so I guess in reality…I am using .05%.
Thanks
What did you add next and next untel cationic?Have you checked the compatibility of GLDA and cationic by adding only these two in water or GLDA with any water soluble cationic in water to see if they form insoluble salt or not?
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Abdullah said:Graillotion said:Abdullah said:@Graillotion did you add %0.1 active GLDA or solution?
If solution, how much GLDA is in the solution?The .1% GLDA goes into the beaker first….then all the water goes in second….and so on and so forth. So all the water and the GLDA are in the beaker by themselves for a short amount of time…I guess I would consider that a solution.
……….Oh maybe I misunderstood your question…I use the liquid form, which is 50% active ingredient….so I guess in reality…I am using .05%.
Thanks
What did you add next and next untel cationic?I put the Varisoft EQ 65 in the oil phase, so the GLDA and Varisoft do not meet until emulsification.
The formula is now working magically…I am on version #16.
So Keep in mind…this formula is still primarily 165 @ 3%, and Varisoft EQ 65 at 2%.
Since my GLDA is liquid, it is only 50% active…therefore at my inclusion rate of .1%…it is more like .05%.
Pharma suggested (and was right as usual) that SepiGel 305 would work in this scenario, (I believe) due to the lower rate of the Varisoft EQ 65….and the inclusion post emulsion. The different anionic gelling agents have varying levels of how they will interact with cationics, and it was his belief that 305 was one of the better possible candidates, based on it’s constituents.
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Graillotion said:Abdullah said:Graillotion said:Abdullah said:@Graillotion did you add %0.1 active GLDA or solution?
If solution, how much GLDA is in the solution?The .1% GLDA goes into the beaker first….then all the water goes in second….and so on and so forth. So all the water and the GLDA are in the beaker by themselves for a short amount of time…I guess I would consider that a solution.
……….Oh maybe I misunderstood your question…I use the liquid form, which is 50% active ingredient….so I guess in reality…I am using .05%.
Thanks
What did you add next and next untel cationic?I put the Varisoft EQ 65 in the oil phase, so the GLDA and Varisoft do not meet until emulsification.
The formula is now working magically…I am on version #16.
So Keep in mind…this formula is still primarily 165 @ 3%, and Varisoft EQ 65 at 2%.
Since my GLDA is liquid, it is only 50% active…therefore at my inclusion rate of .1%…it is more like .05%.
Pharma suggested (and was right as usual) that SepiGel 305 would work in this scenario, (I believe) due to the lower rate of the Varisoft EQ 65….and the inclusion post emulsion. The different anionic gelling agents have varying levels of how they will interact with cationics, and it was his belief that 305 was one of the better possible candidates, based on it’s constituents.
Thanks
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