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What do you do when your formulation consultant takes your money and stops contacting you?
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Maybe it could be worth considering some way for people to give testimonials/ feedback on their experiences with formulation consultants?
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There are a couple of ways to give testimonials/feedback … Post on the consultant’s Linkedin Page, Google+, Facebook, etc. regarding your positive or negative experiences. You could also easily create a post on this forum giving feedback on your experience.What this all boils down to is doing your proper due diligence in selecting a consultant by reference checking with their clients. Any reputable consultant will give you a reference list if you ask.It also boils down to contract negotiation. It is standard in any industry that you perhaps make a 50% up front payment for the consultant to begin work and then a final payment once the work product has been delivered or at agreed upon milestones. I never would have made a final payment without having some work product from the consultant in hand. -
These unfortunate circumstances have put everyone in a very uncomfortable position. I truly hope the individuals involved can settle their differences and resolve these issues in a timely manner.
It is evident the consultants/chemists who have posted on this thread are caring individuals with some great advice. Thank you for offering guidance. If the person in question is a member of this forum, @Perry is undoubtedly upset by this entire mess too.
@MarkBroussard, I totally agree with doing your proper due diligence. However, there may be people on this forum who are new to this industry, and perhaps even new to being in business for themselves. That being said - they participate in these forums, build relationships and based on what they read, they trust the people who are advertising their services to be reputable. If those advertising individuals are also actively participating on numerous forums, that would add more credibility too. Even the moderators of various social media groups may have been misled if they don’t personally know these consultants/chemists.
I have been in business for many years, but I’m new to this part of the beauty industry. I’m looking for a consultant/chemist too. Based on past experiences I’m very particular about who I work with. I probably do a lot more digging than the average person before I enter into a contract with someone. Several weeks ago I contacted one of the consultant/chemists listed on this forum. I assumed he was reputable based on what I read in his profile and on his website. Everything looked professional and appeared to be in order. He would NOT provide any references. That, among other things, was why I did not hire him.
In searching for a consultant/chemist are these expectations unreasonable? I certainly wouldn’t want to insult anyone by requesting these things. I would like the following:
References that I can personally call
Samples of the chemists work
A tour of their facility/lab
Payment in the form of credit card with terms specifying 3-4 payments (deposit, mid-production with samples, final payment upon full delivery of product).
Do many people work this way or am I asking too much? Thanks in advance.
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@Amy Burton:
(1) It is perfectly reasonable to request references that you can speak with regarding their experience with the chemist. Now, it may well be that the client(s) and chemist(s) have entered into a confidentiality agreement. Not all clients want it to be known that they work with a consulting chemist, nor which consulting chemist(s) they work with. So, that may be an issue that limits the references any particular chemist may provide.(2) Sample of the chemists work? That would fall into (1) above. If the product has been commercialized and is on the store shelf, probably best that you just purchase a product the chemist has developed. We don’t have samples just laying around for you to touch and feel … I don’t know what that would tell you exactly.(3) A tour of their lab/facilities … same thing … if you are willing to spend the money for a field trip, generally not a problem. But, some manufacturing facilities may have restrictions, again due to client and/or process confidentiality.(4) Credit Card payment … probably not an issue for some consulting chemists. But, not all are going to have CC processing. It’s not that type of business where CC are often used. -
Thanks for your reply.
(1) I do understand about NDA’s. If client references couldn’t be provided, at the very least I would expect some professional references could be. I want to know my consultant/chemist is well respected amongst his/her colleagues, is affiliated with professional organizations, is gaining continuing education through seminars or trade shows and is in good standing with suppliers & creditors. Maybe I’m asking too much? I know if someone wanted to check me out those things wouldn’t be an issue.
(2) Being new to this industry I guess I’m clueless. Maybe it works differently than other industries. I would think a formulator would have some prototypes and/or samples of some kind on hand. I spent several years working in R&D. We had archives and shelves full of everything we had ever worked on. Labels were coded so only the R&D staff knew what was contained in our sample jars. If shelf life were an issue, there would be documentation, photos, etc.. Anyone interested in working with us could see we were legit.
(3) I’m not a wealthy person by any means, but a field trip would be worth every penny. If it were so far away to be cost prohibitive, a tour via Skype or FaceTime would suffice. Even if a chemist is working in a home-based lab, he/she should still be set up in an environment suitable for formulating, testing, etc. If they don’t have the proper equipment, I wouldn’t want to work with them.
(4) Anyone in business today who isn’t accepting credit cards is missing a huge opportunity to grow their business. There’s much more buying power with plastic. In this day and age, even small part-time vendors at local farmer’s markets process credit cards using mag-readers attached to their smart phones.
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@AmyBurton:
I think you are perhaps missing the main point:Does the chemist you choose have the skills and experience to deliver on the formula you developed or are paying the chemist to develop and can he deliver that to you in a reasonable time frame?Everything else is incidental to that objective.And, the only thing that will prove that to you is a track record with clients (which you may be able to reference) and/or products that the chemist has brought to market on his own account.As a contract chemist, once you have turned over the work product to the client, unless you are conducting stability testing for them, there is no need for you to maintain samples. -
Thanks for all your help!
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I hate to jump in halfway with a tangent from the discussion but I may have a resolution.
Those that have paid this “so-called chemist”, how did you make the payment? If it was with a cheque or bank deposit, you can easily track that, if the offender is anywhere in North America or Europe you can try revoking the payment or at least find information on the address of this person. The banks will be quite supportive of these actions.If the payment was through other portals, such as Paypal, make sure you go through their resolution center. They can also be helpful. -
This is pretty rough going and I hope you get a resolution. As a consultant myself I know how easy it is for expectations not to be met on either side. It has taken me a good amount of time to work out the best way to handle clients and for me to work out the best way to handle myself in terms of client expectations. It isn’t easy and I don’t take on every client that comes to me.
As I don’t know both sides of your story I thought it might be useful to share what I do to give you another perspective in case you do need legal help.Looking at this practically I would say that it is only reasonable that after paying someone you should be able to make contact with them within a practical and business-like time-frame whether that is 1 day, 1 week, 1 month or longer is dependent on your ‘rules of engagement’. For me I generally try to give clients something tangible within 4-6 weeks of receiving their payment. I don’t necessarily take every call or answer every email as there is only one of me and I have to focus on doing the job and some clients can call every 5 minutes. I try not to take those on……In terms of when to pay and how much to pay that also varies between consultants. I ask for formulation IP up front so clients have always paid me a couple of thousand dollars plus before I start work. Why? Because I’ve found that is what works best for a business like mine and for the way I like to work as it allows me to be completely transparent with what I’m creating from the outset.As far as ‘how long does a project take to complete’ goes that is where we start getting into tricky grounds. I’ve had projects run for 4 weeks from start to finish and others go for 2 years, especially when things are complex. However, contact lines must be kept open and honest on both sides so that expectations are met. I’ve let things slip before but then again so have my clients. We are all only human.In terms of the consultants obligations to your project this is also tricky. As a consultant I have taken on jobs before that I end up not being able to complete for one reason or another. Generally it is because the client hasn’t liked what I’ve produced or has changed their mind or their goal posts. In these situations rather than run and hide I’ve found it best to talk it through with the client and work on a plan B. If the client feels ripped off and I’ve taken on something that I really couldn’t do (happened once) then I offer to create something different or give money back. Most of the time if the relationship is good a client is happy to put the money towards a different formula. Communication is key though whatever happens and lawyers usually spell the end of civil conversation.As far as formula expectations go these should be covered in the initial contract - is stability testing included, what about PET, efficacy testing, consumer trials, fragrance variants, scale-up support? If an experienced consultant is taking on newbie clients it is part of their role to set expectations and cover all of this. If the consultant doesn’t understand the above then there will be problems.Anyone can set up as a consultant in this industry and with many small brand owners and start-ups some can last a fairly long time before being rustled. I think that sometimes people are just out to rip people off but mainly in my experience some of these consultants just don’t know what they don’t know and aren’t adequately qualified. There are so many nuances within the industry and only time and hands-on experience will ‘qualify’ a consultant, not just reading every forum, being a great ‘researcher’ or just being passionate.If I was to hire a consultant chemist I’d make sure they had worked in manufacturing (and not just for 5 minutes with one company), be adequately qualified academically, be personable and work in a similar style to you (very important), have a reputation that can be validated (especially if you are paying them thousands) and also have a good working knowledge of the practical aspects of brand development such as costings, ingredient supply chain and marketing. It is also key that a consultant understand the regulatory aspect of what you are trying to achieve.Sorry for the long post but I hope it helps. -
I tend to think that part of the problem is clients trying to get work done very cheaply.
For example, I would expect a consulting firm that meets @AmyBurton’s requirements to start charges at around $10,000 for a fully tested and qualified simple cosmetic formula, twice that for a complicated formula, and three or four times that for an OTC drug formula. I would also expect them to charge extra each and every time the formula target is changed.Trying to get a formulation for $2,500 may well be asking for trouble - someone who can work that cheaply is most likely someone who has taken on many more projects than he or she can handle, just to be able to pay their bills. -
In the case here where several of us have had similar experiences, we all specifically KNOW who this individual is who is defrauding people. He is still active on the forum. This really bothers me since I am sure he is continuing to defraud other clients and prey upon other start-ups. I don’t think I can revoke payments to him at this point, they were bank transfers.
In my case, this individual has positive LinkedIn reviews and comments from legitimate companies (which I looked into before hiring him), and he is highly regarded as an experienced expert in the field. He is very active on this forum. As this was my first project in cosmetics, I did think his rates were low, but as a start-up, that was a relief. I spoke to two other chemists and selected this one because he was so helpful. I began to trust this person, and for a while he gave me great information. We had a great working relationship. I also started out by only working on one product with him before hiring him to do three additional products - I wanted to make sure I could work with him and he would deliver a good prototype. He delivered one prototype last fall which wasn’t the final version, but a good start. For that product I had paid 100% up front. I then engaged him to made three more prototypes. I agreed to pay 50% upfront and 50% when the prototypes were completed. Unfortunately I trusted him when he said they were going to be mailed in 7-10 days and paid the balance. I never received them - neither the three new prototypes nor the revised first prototype.That was in January. This person cut off all contact with me in February. I am out $6000 and do not have any formulations. This is not a dispute or misunderstanding of what each party was expecting. This is fraud and theft, and I am pursuing it as such.People who are trying to protect this individual and his identity here are only complicit in the fraud he is committing. If there were only one of us, that would be one thing. But there are at least three. I would love to hear this person’s side of the story, but since he hasn’t communicated with me in three months, I can’t do anything about that. Since I trusted him, I gave him the benefit of the doubt for a long time thinking he was just busy, overwhelmed or dealing with a personal issue. It took me a while to realize what was actually happening. It is very baffling given his prior references.I have also tried to resolve this issue privately but have had no success. I have always been professional and courteous to him. I have contacted the FBI and the state consumer protection agency to report the fraud.By the way, individuals control their LinkedIn page and Facebook pages. They can delete negative comments and feedback, and block people from posting on their pages. So those are not effective ways to truly evaluate a person’s abilities and references. -
@Perry I suppose the best way would be to block the person (username more specifically) here and we can then know who is missing, this way you won’t feel guilty of shaming anyone and people would be smart enough to notice that user name missing for long time in discussions. At least this can serve as redressal for those who have suffered and a caution for those who might be future victims.
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Your best course of action would be to coordinate with the other clients who have similar issues with said “chemist” and each of you contact the District Attorney’s Office and Sheriff’s Office in the county/state in which the “chemist” resides and each of you file complaints making sure you reference one another’s complaint. If the DA see’s a pattern of behaviour, he will most likely look into it.
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@Chemist77 - I don’t have enough evidence to block anyone. I have removed the accused from the list of people on the “Need Formulating Services” list but I am not, as of yet, going to kick him out of the forum. My efforts to get his side of the story have been met with silence, however this does not automatically mean he is guilty. There could be lots of reasons he doesn’t wish to tell his side of the story. Like perhaps a lawyer told him not to comment.
If someone is convicted of fraud then I will remove them.@emilyinaustin - This doesn’t mean that I am complicit in allowing someone to defraud people visiting this forum. It is also not a defense of the accused. I encourage anyone to pursue legal action against him & let us know when there is a ruling against him.This post was not meant to be a witch hunt, but rather a cautionary discussion for anyone hiring a formulator or any other consultant. And I think there has been some excellent, general advice given on the topic.I’m hesitant to ban & remove anyone based on anecdotal evidence. Anyone can write anything about anyone on the Internet. I have no way of determining the validity of the claims.Just remember anyone can accuse you of anything and the next time it could be you who is complained about.But this is a community not a dictatorship. I’m happy to listen to all opinions. What would you do?Perry, 44Note: Since this discussion thread was started the accused has not posted on this forum. -
@Perry Clear enough to understand.
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@Perry Impressively fair minded and I would be grateful for the same treatment in those shoes.
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You are doing the right thing Perry.
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I agree with Perry’s actions.
I will also point out that this is a community designed by and for professional cosmetic chemists. We are not a group of handcrafters and hobbyists, we all have reputations and jobs that could be at risk. As a result, we have a responsibility to be careful about what we post here - this is a public forum, and it is easily searchable with Google.This discussion thread was, at @Perry’s request, deliberately kept to general advice and precautions to be taken when contracting with any generic consultant, and not a specific individual.Collectively, we’ve been accused of being complicit in the actions of one individual, and of minimizing and/or defending his actions. This is not the case.Our professional reputations and the reputations of the company we work for are on the line, each and every time we post on this forum. There is a reason my signature has the disclaimer that it does - I was threatened with legal action against both myself and Beaumont due to a post I made here.The only defense against a charge of libel is truth, and facts.For a fact, all I can say that I truthfully know with certainty, is that there is an individual on this forum who has been accused of wrongdoing by another individual on this forum. I can’t regard any of the information posted here as credible fact - there is no proof or other substantiation, and even if there was, I couldn’t trust it - it could have been photoshopped. As a result, as a professional, it would be extremely irresponsible of me to take sides in this dispute, and I won’t. I suspect that the same holds true for the other professionals here. -
Just wanted to comment that as uncomfortable/painful as this is for all parties involved, it really has served its purpose as a cautionary tale for aspiring entrepreneurs who could have easily found themselves in the same situation.
Thank you to everyone who put themselves out there so that their experience/opinion could be heard by all of us lurkers. -
Thank you to all the chemists and cosmetic professionals who participate on this forum with honesty and integrity. The wealth of information you provide is genuinely appreciated.
I don’t know anyone on this forum. However, I believe the vast majority are good people. When it comes to questionable business practices I have learned that sometimes things are not always what they seem. The level of deception often runs deeper than one can imagine. Anyone can portray themselves as something they’re not. Professional con-artists scam everyone, including colleagues. Due diligence reveals the ugly truth. Criminals can’t erase public records.
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This is so sad. We work so hard as formulation chemists and for someone to come in and do this is unaccepptable. They should be ashamed of themselves. This is such a nice website .
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