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Was there something wrong with the preservative? Should I sue?
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@Pharma
I still use them! I’ve got a deck of 100% plastic poker cards for this reason. 😀
I’m not superstitious, but when I used the Joker last week, my emulsion failed! (Well, the emulsion itself was fine but I accidentally knocked over the mortar.) :joy: :joy: -
Doreen said:@Pharma
I still use them! I’ve got a deck of 100% plastic poker cards for this reason. 😀
I’m not superstitious, but when I used the Joker last week, my emulsion failed! (Well, the emulsion itself was fine but I accidentally knocked over the mortar.) :joy: :joy:I do try formulations in a mortar too.
I’d recommend to use pvc (raw material) for blister packaging. :smiley: or you can use the plastic from bottles as-well. -
I still have my Mortar and Pestle from Pharmacy school. However, I rarely use it in Formulations.
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Mortar and pestle are sufficient when mixing cream A with active B or when making old-school ointments which are usually of lamellar structure/high viscosity oil phase with fairly high amounts of wax, cetyl stearate, cetearyl alcohol, and/or hydrogenated peanut oil or contain solids such as zinc oxide. They’re useless for more up to date emulsions which require high shear or are of lower viscosity.
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Generally, I use mine to triturate powders and reduce the particle size to facilitate the dissolution process. For example, salt when doing a salt curve.Any other use can be done with any one of my IKA Overhead mixers more efficiently. With these appropriate equipment, the Mortar and Pestle become obsolete. I doubt that you would really exert enough shear to properly disperse ZnO for a sunscreen with this equipment.Honestly, Compounding Pharmacy is where it would come into use. Formulating is far different.
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Pharma said:Mortar and pestle are sufficient when mixing cream A with active B or when making old-school ointments which are usually of lamellar structure/high viscosity oil phase with fairly high amounts of wax, cetyl stearate, cetearyl alcohol, and/or hydrogenated peanut oil or contain solids such as zinc oxide. They’re useless for more up to date emulsions which require high shear or are of lower viscosity.
True. I use the mortar+pestle mostly for thick w/o, but also o/w emulsions without polymers, rarely an ointment and for dispersion.
(With dispersion I mean for example a preservative in the cool down (like formaldehyde releasers), which is a relatively small amount, to get it a 100% homogenous in a thick cream, I use the mortar. Covering the mortar with emulsion, so there won’t be adhesion of active to mortar surface, ‘packing in’ the active with a same small amount of emulsion, mixing same amount with same amount until all of the emulsion is used. The packing in method is not only to prevent loss of active, but in case of pigments, not getting the mortar discoloured. I think @Pharma and @em88 will recognize these methods immediately, right?
(Please don’t mind my childlike English descriptions, I don’t know the proper pharmacy jargon translations in English).For the ‘up to date’ emulsions I use 250-1000 ml beakers, but I still use the mortar/poker cards then (the beakers are relatively low in size). 😉
Edited some typos.
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@Microformulation
So basically you just use the mortar for pulverizing salt.
Isn’t a salt curve done with just NaCl? It dissolves quick without grinding.
How much time do you actually gain by that? I mean you’ll have more dishes to do in the end. -
It does lead to faster dissolution. It was standard practice in several manufacturers I worked at.Regardless, having been trained in both Compounding Pharmacy and Formulation (different evolutions), a Mortar and Pestle is hardly the best tool.
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Microformulation said:It does lead to faster dissolution. It was standard practice in several manufacturers I worked at.
It sounded a bit unnecessary to me. But I understand it can be handy. Just like the use of a mortar might sound cumbersome to others.
Regardless, having been trained in both Compounding Pharmacy and Formulation (different evolutions), a Mortar and Pestle is hardly the best tool.No offence but this sounds a bit pedantic. I think we all know those are different. I don’t think it’s necessary to mention whatever training to posit your opinion about the relevance of i.a. mortars.
I hope I don’t have to mention my BPharm degree every time I have a related opinion or question.In some cases I find a mortar an ideal solution, like the reason I described in my previous reply. And of course I produce relatively small batches. Mortars in pharmacies are usually also only used for ad hoc preparations, not huge stock preparations.
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Doreen … you should have Perry post “Pharmacist” on your profile. That way you could remind everyone without having to say a word about it. It’s always nice to know if a poster is credentialed in a scientific field when reading their posts.
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I know a couple of huge consulting companies that intentionally got rid of positions in signatures. To eliminate bias. Some homecrafters know more about formulating than chemists.
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There is also a lot of overconfidence in many Home Crafters. I bill out at least 12 hours a week fixing issues for these lines.
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I am neither discounting importance of scientific degrees nor saying that home crafters are better than cosmetics chemists with years of experience. I am also well aware what kind of nonsense products are sold Etsy. However this failed formula that is being discussed on this thread was put together but a chemist. Bug food preserved with sodium benzoate/potassium sorbate without chelators and even glycols. What could go wrong indeed? There is much more to formulating cosmetics than chemistry degree: knowledge of the market, awareness of existing products, experience of using these products, knowledge of materials and access to these materials, genuine interest and desire to explore, and hours spent in the lab. Putting labels on people is very tempting. Most of members of this forum have an idea who is professional cosmetic chemist, and who is a ‘toxic chemicals’ crowd without signatures. Let’s just all stay a bit more open minded.
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@ngarayeva001 So true!PS I’ve got a tag so people could see that I’m NOT a cosmetic chemist but one with scientific background. Folks here seem to be ignoring that tag…
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This reminds me of a saying “You don’t even know what you don’t know”
Since this forum is open to anyone who wants to join, many of whom are new to the field of cosmetic chemistry, tags have their value so one can differentiate between a poster who is a formally-trained professional and one who is not. I’ve seen many things posted as fact by people who are not formally-trained that are just plain wrong. Someone unskilled in the field would not be able to pick up on those distinctions.
LOL! … I love the idea of not using titles to eliminate bias against people who may or may not know what they are talking about. Brilliant.
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I will add more it is technically impossible to add details on certificates a person holds to the email signature in the firm where I work. You can be all happy and excited that you got qualified finally, but the only place you can post it is your personal linkedin. Well, maybe consulting firms don’t get it and we should place the name of the school and all certificate on our badges, so that everyone knew who is a respectable person and who is a yokel with a calculator
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“I’ve seen many things posted as fact by people who are not formally-trained that are just plain wrong. Someone unskilled in the field would not be able to pick up on those distinctions”
Impossible. When someone who is not formally-trained post something that is even slightly inaccurate those who are formally-trained shame that person to the point when they say “thank you for your help, I understand” and are afraid to post again. And then, they PM me and I help them to fix their formulas.
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Back to the preservatives I’ve been doing pretty well just using The sodium instead of the potassium & I always really like Euxyl9010 a fav!
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College degrees, professional certifications / organizations and titles exist for a reason … to establish that one is indeed trained in the discipline and skilled in the art. And to clarify who is a trained professional versus a yokel with an internet connection.
The issue you raise is pertinent in this sense … this is a site designed for cosmetic chemists to share information, not misinformation. So, of course, it is fair for professional chemists to correct any misinformation they come upon. Nothing wrong with that at all.
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Mark were you taking to me?
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No, Catherine … I was addressing the previous post unrelated to your post about the preservatives which is the topic of this thread that has veered off course.
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Ha that is because with match sticks in eyes I am struggling to still be of some use at 2am. Probably time to say night night!
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ngarayeva001 said:(…) Some homecrafters know more about formulating than chemists.
Chemistry is such a broad field/there are so many fields within chemistry. Do you mean a cosmetic chemist in particular?
I can’t imagine a homecrafter having more substantial knowledge of formulating than a cosmetic chemist.
I have to agree with @Microformulation that there is a lot of overestimation of abilities and knowledge amongst homecrafters in general. I have witnessed it in several Facebook groups when I still had a Facebook account.
I also find the saying @MarkBroussard mentions that ‘you don’t even know what you don’t know’ a very good one. It’s hard to explain how much more there is to a certain subject and how very complex the matter is when a person only thinks in limited and superficial terms about it. Because they simply haven’t had to deal with/have no knowledge of those particular things that make it more complex.
(I find this very hard to explain properly, especially in English, but I hope I’m a bit understandable.)On the other hand, there are certainly professionals who underestimate the abilities and knowledge of homecrafters and even look down on them, or automatically assume they have no scientific background.
I totally agree with @Perry by setting a low threshold to be able to join this forum. Every person has the right to ask questions here, not only professionals. For the latter is a special group, or so I have heard.
I think it’s rude to approach a person who admits that he/she is a newbie with not much experience c.q. knowledge with bitter sneers and snarky remarks.
If the willingness to help is absent then why participate on this forum anyway?
And with help I don’t only mean showing off one’s intellect about a certain subject or only reply when someone is wrong about something, but to give practical help. Several professionals here are so generous in doing that, it’s commendable.@MarkBroussard
I’m not a pharmacist. Pharmacists require a Pharm.D. I have a BPharm degree in Pharmaceutical Consultancy. -
When I graduated in 1987, BSPharm was the standard and the PharmD was a graduate degree. At that time anyone getting a PharmD usually went into Institutional Pharmacy. The PharmD became a requirement at a later point. Many of my classmates still practice in NYS with a BS Pharm as they are grandfathered in. I imagine that this group will slowly retire out.Some of my answers may come across as unhelpful, but it is really because I believe that educating oneself through a study of credible resources is more effective and in fact will deliver information that would be missed through a simple targeted answer.For example, to the original point. The preservative based on organic acids needs a lower pH would be the simple targeted answer. A more wide-ranging reading by the OP would bring up the class itself, the use of chelants, glycols and generally perhaps a detailed explanation of the Hurdle Technique. Had the answer simply been “drop the pH” the OP may have fixed the problem at hand, but would be “robbed” of additional useful information that would serve her better in the long run. In my opinion, there is value in pointing them in the proper direction, but also challenging them to develop Professionally.
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