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w/o formulation advise
Hi everyone:) Im new here, I have a diploma in organic cosmetic formulation. I’ve just started an advanced diploma course. I’ve learnt much about formulating off my own research and endless formulating hours with many fails to learn from!
Can anyone advise? Im developing what I’d like to be an anti-aging W/O emulsion with dry oils and butters plus plant extracts and hydrophilic ingredients of HA, a glycerite, electrolytes in a 40% (using pg4-o emulsifier) water phase plus other ingredients. I’m not quite clear on how a W/O emulsion is received by the stratum corneum? Is there any point in adding the humectants and hydrophilic ingredients in this kind of formulation or should just stick to in O/W - but I do love the texture and feel of my W/O. Thanks
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40 Replies
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hi
well, W/O emulsions tend to be very fatty on the skin the Transport of all your water-soluble ingredients to the skin will be lower due to the Barrier function of the cream. They help with TEWL a lot but I am not sure if your customers would like that kind of feeling for a cream that has to be applied to the face. Of course, there are formulations out there that feel lighter but the formulation of this kind of W/O formulation can be very tricky especially if you have a lot of water-soluble ingredients.
I would suggest going to a O/W the texture is lighter and the richness of the cream is easier to adapt depending on the spreading cascade of your oils. Production although is much easier.
If you really want to stay with an W/O emulsion be sure to be aware of the incorporation of the water phase to the oil phase very slowly for most emulsifiers that will achieve an w/O emulsion.
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Thank you, I’m learning every day and this is my absolute passion, your advice is really appreciated ???? I do like the texture and feel I worked hard on my ingredient profile and it feels rich but absorbs quickly and doesn’t sit heavy …I am so two minds about it, maybe less expensive water phase ingredients if they are compromised but more for texture and function … If I was to stick to this W/o how could I optimise it’s skin hydrating benefits? Thank you again
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if you stay with a w/O the water loss of the skin will be already minimized due to the film that the cream will form on the skin. The Fatty layer will minimize water loss and increase the hydration of the skin over time. water absorbing ingredients like Glycerin and Hyaluronic acid will not work to their full potential I would say. to improve the “feeling” of hydration you could work with very high-spreading oils like Cetiol Ultimate or if you are allowed to use some silicone oil to make the customer feel smoothness which can be interpreted as a hydration immediate effect.
i am not a total expert on W/O formulations maybe someone with more experience can give further tips.
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Small water soluble ingredients may even penetrate better with a w/o emulsion due to occlusion and ‘anti-solvent’ effects (better soluble in skin than in product after water evaporated). I don’t know how well HA and other polymeric humectants would perform…Apart from that, I doubt that your emulsions are going to be stable if you only use polyglyceryl-4 oleate. Also, should you add enough fatty alcohols and/or glyceryl monoesters, this ingredient is more likely to form lamellar structures than a w/o emulsion
. This would result, IMHO, in more flexibility and a higher chance for stability. Such lamellar structures are also good in reducing TEWL. -
Thanks!! Googling! ???? I use the pg4-o with cetearyl alcohol 5% candelilla wax 5% Coco-Caprylate-Caprate 5% lecithin 2% rice and arrow starch, various fast absorption rate oils and butters … 30% hydrosol (not 40%) a glycerate at 1.5% HA at 2.5% eo blend and a preservative
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… I mean I just want to make the best moisturiser in the world… it’s not much to ask is it ? ???? Thank you both for your help it can be quite lonely doing this alone and hard! But I love it
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The formulation has been stable at room temp now for nearly 2 months ???? I think I’m right in saying I need to add magnesium chloride if it is W/O to stabilise the water phase or still do this anyway as I’ve not done this yet… I was wondering if the sodium hyaluronic acid is helping to stabilise the water phase in any way?
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I would guess that the thing which keeps your emulsion stable are the 5% candelilla wax . It’s actually a lot but if you like the feel, there’s nothing wrong in using that much.Gelling the water phase for example with HA or xanthan also helps (even more in o/w emulsions).Magnesium sulfate and other salts can, but don’t have to, stabilise w/o emulsions. If its stable without, the better. You could add sodium lactate and/or sodium PCA; both serve as salt (not as potent as Epsom salt) and humectant.Oh, and with 5% cetearyl alcohol I would guess that chances are there that you don’t have a traditional w/o emulsion.
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Thank you! It’s so interesting… sorry to ask yet another question but why would the cetearyl alcohol possibly change it to an O/W, if that’s what you mean …
I’ll try and lower the candelilla wax too, and gel more water with more HA powder, CW does have a high absorption rate so not too heavy, sticky or waxy, but could go down ..
How do I test my formulas conductivity? It’s turning into my little Frankenstein ????♂️????
I have however bought some vegetal (not used before) and more olivem 1000, I’ve made decent moisturisers with it but hate the soaping/stickiness ( I use 5%) - I like my oils and butters! I have recently read you should combine it with GMS SE or similar and much lower % so I’ll try that …
Well thank you, you have answered more than what I asked which is so appreciated, these are all the things I need to know..
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W/O emulsions are not stable by nature. Unfortunately 2 months isn’t enough to conclude. Please post the formula because from the description of ingredients something doesn’t sound right.
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OliviaLeigh said:… why would the cetearyl alcohol possibly change it to an O/W, if that’s what you mean …
I’ll try and lower the candelilla wax too, and gel more water with more HA powder, CW does have a high absorption rate so not too heavy, sticky or waxy, but could go down …
No, not into a classical o/w either . There’s a few more emulsion types possible, one looks like lasagne, hard to tell what’s the inner or the outer phase, the pasta sheets or the sauce layers.I’m not saying you should, let alone have to, reduce or increase anything, if you like the haptics, then that’s abosolutely fine. Two months shelf life for a DIY project for personal use, that’s also okay I think. BTW gelling the water phase with HA is expensive… -
Like the lasagna analogy, thanks
I’m working towards eventually setting up my own brand of products so how many months shelf life if I were to release this to market should I leave it? Maybe sticking to more conventional formulas would be wiser for the time being ????Still not sure if the HA is getting delivered properly in this Formula? So yes I could find cheaper options … Thanks! Have a good day, I’m having a big lab clear out and organise before the new ingredients arrive -
Hi ngarayeva001 Thank you so much, sending it over in a second:)
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Okay so here goes :#
Heated Oil phase 75
Cetearyl alcohol 5%
Candellia wax 5%
Rose wax 1.5%
Murumuru Butter 8%
Mango Butter 5%
Shea Butter 3%
Grapeseed Oil 16%
Camellia Oil 4%
Coco-caprylate-caprate 5%
Arrow Root 1%
Lecithin (sunflower) 2%
PG4-O 8%
Heated Water Phase 65
Hydrosol 20%
Distilled water 10%
Rice starch 1%
Glycerite 1.5%
Cool Down Phase 40
Preservative 12 1%
Sea Buckthorn CO2 0.5
Sodium Hyaluronate Gel 2.5 (1% HA)
Eo blend will be added later under 1%
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I am not expert in W/O emulsions, but I disagree with gelling your water can improve stability.
You should be trying to suspend the water in the oil continuous phase, therefore you need to gel you oil phase. So it stops the water droplets from “swimming”.I used to use Candelila wax in my lip balm at 2% (I believe), but it gave tooo much shine, … how does your product apply? Doesn’t it leave you very shiny?
[Maybe the Arrow root helps with that]PS. I don’t see any antioxidant for your butters and oils.
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@Paprik True, gelling the outer phase is way more important but 5% wax takes care of that easily .Assuming it’s not a traditional w/o emulsion (water droplets in a continuous oil phase), gelling the water phase to some degree certainly isn’t a bad thing to do.
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Hi Paprik Thanks for helping
So I was thinking (and hoping!) the butters, the fatty alcohol the candelilla wax and pg4-o would all work well together to create a good thick oil base.
I’ve added rice starch to the water phase which turns into a gel once hydrated as well as adding a nice consistency to the finished product - its not high enough in this formulation which doesn’t seem to be a problem.. yet ???? but I think after discussions here i may up it to 4% and the arrow root in the oil phase to 2% - something like that.The candelilla wax goes on quite thick on application but I chose it because of its absorption rate which I find to be quite fast…This formula was created to be a hydrating anti-aging balm so I want it to feel rich hydrating but with a quick absorption and non comedogenic and no greasy after feel once massaged in well… a little goes a long way!
I forgot to say I add 0.1% Rosemary co2 as my antioxidant which goes in with the EOs -
something worth bearing in mind, and which is rarely explained, is that magnesium or calcium salts improve stability by increasing the surface tension of the water phase, and reducing its (normally very high) tendency to aggregate; magnesium sulphate is typically used because of its high solubilityI would also suggest adding a few % of castor wax to gel the oil phase and improve thermal stability -
@Bill_Toge Thank you, yes I’d also heard this and have bought some magnesium sulphate but was unsure agsin if it would be okay with the sodium hyaluronate acid jel?
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@Bill_Toge I’m looking for castor wax now…
Hydrogenated Castor Oil are there any other hydrogenated oils I could use? Which would be the lightest on the skin? Also what percentage should I be working around? Thanks again -
hydrogenated castor oil (not PEG-40 hydrogenated castor oil!) is the same thing as castor wax; in my experience, around 5% w/w is effectivecastor oil has some unique chemistry (hydroxyl group on the 12 position of the fatty acid) that becomes evident when it’s hydrogenated; other hydrogenated oils don’t show the same gelling effect as castor oilI don’t know about the compatibility of sodium hyaluronate with magnesium salts, I’ve never tried combining them
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@Bill_Toge Thank you! I’ve never used castor wax but sounds like something I’m going to like and need! I’ll update here once I’ve tried out the new formula, let everyone know how I got on. Thanks so much for your help
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@Bill_Toge Hi Bill, I found this on Research Gate - Formulation and Analgesic Effect of Sodium Hyaluronate and Magnesium Sulfate Combination in Rats Following Intra-articular Injection: Hyaluronate Combined with Magnesium Sulfate for Rapid Analgesic Effect
Would this be okay to use in my formulation then?
I am getting better at understanding these papers but not ???? confidant yet ????
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OliviaLeigh said:@Bill_Toge Hi Bill, I found this on Research Gate - Formulation and Analgesic Effect of Sodium Hyaluronate and Magnesium Sulfate Combination in Rats Following Intra-articular Injection: Hyaluronate Combined with Magnesium Sulfate for Rapid Analgesic Effect
Would this be okay to use in my formulation then?
I am getting better at understanding these papers but not ???? confidant yet ????
the best thing to do is try it and see for yourself - you can only get so much information from scientific papers
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@Bill_Toge Thanks, just bought both…
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