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Surfactant Formula Thinning Base and Reduced Foam
Hello All.I’m kind of lost with this base formula. I’m rebooting with base formulas for a shampoo. I’ve stripped it down to all the basic functional ingredients. Of course eventually I will start adding other ingredients to the base one by one to evaluate the effectiveness and all the jazz I’m sure you’re aware of.Issue #1 FoamingI’ve done several tests with different concentrations of surfactant to increase the foaming action to no avail. It starts off with great flash foam, though a bit airy, but it’s plentiful. Over about a week or so the solution starts to produce less and less foam requiring the use of more and more product.The base formula I started with was as follows:1. Water 67%
2. ALS (30% active) 10.000%3. SLES (25.5% active) 10.000%4. Coco-Glucoside 5.000%
5. Disodium Cocoamphoacetate 5.000%
6. Preservative 1.000%
7. Dead Sea Salt 1.000%
8. Fragrance 1.000%I initially thought it is a pH issue in the manufacturing process since I’m using ALS and smelled ammonia a couple of times, but I corrected that issue in later batches and still had the issue.Issue #2 ThinningI found a base that I thought I liked and added glyceryl oleate (not Lamesoft PO just glyceryl oleate). That started the thinning issue. It also reduced the foam a little but I knew that would happen. I added PEG-120 methyl glucose trioleate (Glucose-T) to the mix to thicken it up, which it did, but three days later it was water thin again.The formula as follows:1. Water 69.250%
2. ALS (30% active) 13.000%3. SLES (25.5% active) 10.000%4. Glyceryl Oleate 1.000%
5. Disodium Cocoamphoacetate 5.000%
6. Preservative 0.500%
7. Dead Sea Salt 1.000% (does nothing after the glyceryl oleate is added)
8. Fragrance 0.250%9. PEG-120 methyl glucose trioleate 5.000%Because I’ve tested the base formula with glyceryl oleate multiple times in different configurations, I know it’s the issue ingredient for thinning. I’m just not sure why. I’ve seen it used in many formulas including my own. I’m not finding any useful info on Prospector or from the supplier. I’m close to just leaving it out altogether, but I do like the feel it gives.Would anyone be kind enough to provide some advice/information or be able to point me in the right direction?Regards,CosChemFan -
5 Replies
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Well, I might comment on this because I have used combinations of ammonium and sodium surfactants before now.
I can’t see what your problem is, frankly. There is nothing in there that would cause the issues you mention. So going through the Sherlock Holmes principle, I suggest it may be your preservative. You didn’t tell us what that is.Gyceryl oleate is one of the two components of Lamesoft PO-65 and when I was using that, I had no problems at all with foam or thickening, quite the contrary, in fact. I would reduce it to 0.5%After formulating for some time with a sodium/ammonium mix I decided to use a commercial blend, Plantaren APB, and we get great results with that at just 25% total surfactant mix. It is ALS/ALES based. BASF have an equivalent. -
Just giving it a quick glance, it looks like your surfactant level is a little too low.
Have you tried any version of knock-out experiments? -
@Bobzchemist You were right, thank you. After a little more experimentation I got a working base. I upped the percentage of surfactant and lowered the glyceryl oleate a bit. The oleate still thins out the formula, but only a little bit. I realized once I mixed the oleate in the surfactant first and then added the water it gave me a better thickening result. I assume that’s why glyceryl oleate is mixed with coco-glucoside in Lamesoft PO-65 because with out it there’s a thinning effect. Thank you @Belassi for all your help.However, because I was having such a hard time with the glyceryl oleate I substituted it with PEG-50 Shea Butter and think I like that feel much better than the oleate plus it doesn’t give me the problems that the oleate does, and it’s MUCH cheaper lol. I might just buy some Lamesoft-PO though and try it out. I figured I’d save some trouble (and money) by incorporating just the glyceryl oleate, but it has been a pain.
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Shea butter is great for the hair and since you already found it gives good results I’d stick with that.
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What the formula lacks is a foam stabilizer/thickener like the good ol’ cocamide DEA. Since it is not so popular anymore I would check out some alternatives like Amidet N.
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