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Spreadibility of cationic conditioner on Hair
Good Afternoon Everybody!!
I am working on a rinse off cationic conditioner project. I have prepared a basic version with….. BTAC 1.87 wt % , cetearyl alcohol 3.12 wt % .pH adjusted to 3.95 - 4.20 with lactic acid.
Results:- 1) conditioner spreads good on palm, but doesn’t spread likewise on hair.
2) Dry conditioning was Good but wet conditioning is very poor though detangling was quite easy. But supple moisturized feel didn’t observed.
3) Also tried new batches with addition of Dimethicone, Bis Isopropyl Dimethicone separately as well as in combination. But it could improve a very little.
As the benchmark is ” Dove intense repair conditioner ” which provides immediate moisturized & conditioned feel , I have to progress a lot to match it.I humbly request for your valuable suggestions.
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30 Replies
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I have attached herewith the ingredients list of Unilever conditioner.
I have spared no effort to mimic this product except that amodimethicone combination with PEG-7propyl Heptyl Ether. Instead I used Bis aminopropyl Dimethicone. I have made 22 prototypes. I have definitely gained a bit more command to prepare s Lamellar Gel network. But the end result is still not as expected. Hence finally I decided to post it here to get some more insight. -
@SunilHiwarkat1965 How much Dimethicone are you adding? You need liquid emollients (like Dimethicone) in your formula at enough level to provide spreadability and wet conditioning.
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I have tried 1% Dimethicon in one batch.
In another batch I added 2% Bis aminopropyl Dimethicon. Third batch I combined Dimethicon @ 1% & 1% Bis aminopropyl Dimethicon. Do find a slight difference but not up to the mark.
When I was studying the chapter “Lamellar Gel Network ” by T. Iwata, I read a statement that the Lamellar Gel networks are slippery on their own. And I didn’t observe any emollient in Unilever conditioner plus I had a doubt addition of more emollients may disturb the performance & structure of lamellar Gel.
But now from your suggestion it seems that I have to add some more emollients.
I do have C12,C15 Alkyl benzoate on hand. I can try that with 2% in addition to Dimethicon @ 1%.
What is your opinion about unilever conditioner without emollients. How they could have they achieved the feel & performance ? -
@SunilHiwarkat1965 Silicones are actually emollients by function, and that Dove conditioners use a bit more than 4% of that Dimethicone/Amodimethicone/etc combo (probably made for them). Try one sample with 4% of Dimethicone, so you can feel the difference. If your lamellar network is robust enough, there won’t be any problem (the silicone would go either to the oils phase in case it’s compatible with it, or to a separate liquid silicone-only phase, stabilized by the lamellar arrangement).
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@ketchito, Thank you once again. Surely I will try by both methods; adding Dimethicon in oil phase & adding as separate phase. So far I have added it separately. BTW what should be the batch temperature to add silicones as a separate phase. I have added it @ 42 degree c. ( I have used Dimethicone 350 cst)
Another thing bother me is, we are not emulsifying Dimethicon so @ 4% don’t you think that it will be greasy feeling during application?
Also would you pl. explain what do you mean by compability in this case ? As there is nothing other than cetearyl alcohol in oil phase. Do you want me to add 0.5% of ceterath 20 ? -
@ketchito, it just stuck to my mind. You said they must have added Dimethicon/ amodimethicone combo @ 4% which is 2nd ingredient on their ingredients list. That means they have more than 4% cetearyl alcohol in formula where as I have used 3.12% . So to make this lamellar Gel network more robust I have to increase cetearyl alcohol & corresponding % of BTAC also. Am I correct?
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@SunilHiwarkat1965 This is Unilever’s patent for better reference: https://patents.google.com/patent/WO2015110511A1/en.
You can add your dimethicone along with the rest of your oil phase at high temperature (usually above 75°C, since you have BTAC). Once in your formula, the silicone will decide either to stick with the rest of the oil phase, or migrate itself to a separate phase. It’s like a relative you bring home, either he chooses to stay with the other kids in the same room, or sneaks to its own room (and you’ll have to speep in the couch).
Silicones unlike natural oils don’t give a heavy greasy feel, and even less when delivered through an emulsion.
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@ketchito, Thank you very much . Your message dropped in just at very perfect moment. I was just about to rewrite the formula. Shall update hopefully by tomorrow. I have gone through the patent.It seems that they have adopted different method for preparation which is difficult to follow on production scale.
Any way I will follow regular SOP & let us see the end result. Appreciate your kind help. -
Thank you guys, this is actually I was wanting to ask too.
I almost could not believe my eyes first
I actually brought my conditioner for my mom when I was visiting her back in Czech and she is using the same one mentioned here. And she “complained” about my one not spreading that well either! So I will try to adjust the formula a bit to the suggestions from here
Cheers! -
@ketchito,
Update:-
part 1) yes you were right; addition of 4% Dimethicone in one week old batch did improve spreadibility & conditioning. ( Batch viscosity didn’t change)Part 2) I made a fresh batch accommodating Dimethicone @ 4% in oil phase. • I didn’t observe structuring during processing & Viscosity was also bit less than batches without silicone in oil phase. Is it normal?
• After 24 hours there was little increase in viscosity but not up to the mark. 2ndly, batch not seems to be homogeneous.I shall try this batch tomorrow on my hair & share the feedback.
@Paprik cheers. Yes..There are quite few things in common we observe related to our field.
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@SunilHiwarkat1965 Final viscosity is reached between 24-48 h from manufacturing, although further increases in viscosity can be observed.
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@ketchito yes sir. You were perfectly right. Viscosity did increase after 48 hrs. Amazing…. I salute to your practical knowledge.
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@ketchito, I tried this batch on my hair. Spreadibility improved. For further improvements I may need to go over 4% Dimethicone say around 5%. as mentioned by you.I also wish to add Bis- Aminopropyl Dimethicone @ 2% which is not soluble in 350 cst Dimethicone but soluble in caprylyl Methicone.
So my concerns are —
1) will caprylyl Methicone drop the viscosity?
2) Shall I add Caprylyl Methicone + Bis -Aminopropyl Dimethicone + Dimethicone in the oil phase only.
3) Do I need to increase the % of BTAC & Cetearyl alcohol OR Shall I add ceterath 20 @ 0.5% for more viscosity/ stability.
I know I am bothering a lot to you. Extremely sorry for that.
Very eagerly waiting for your valuable suggestions. Thanks in advance. -
@SunilHiwarkat1965 Don’t worry, we’re all here to share experience and knowledge.
You don’t need to solubilize Bis-aminopropyl dimethicone. Add it directly to the oil phase, along with your Dimethicone. Also, if you want more viscosity, you could in rease Cereateth-20 (as you mentioned, up to 0.5%) or the BTAC. If you increase the fatty alcohol instead, try to keep the emulsifier/fatty alcohol molar ratio around 1:4 - 1:6.
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Why you are not using a polymer like HEC or HPMC for viscosity and stability?
Like in cream and lotion, it has dramatic effect in conditioner viscosity too.I get enough viscosity with ≤1% BTAC , 2% fatty alcohol and some polymer.
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@ketchito Thank you for assurance. It helps a lot to boost the moral.( specially when you make 24 versions & still struggling for perfect one.)
Being not from chemistry background; normally I follow 6:10 wt% ratio of BTAC to cetearyl alcohol. BTW; can molar molar ratio be calculated from molecular weights. I tried it once but was not sure. A small tutorial shall be highly appreciated.
Your comments:-@SunilHiwarkat1965 Silicones are actually emollients by function, and that Dove conditioners use a bit more than 4% of that Dimethicone/Amodimethicone/etc combo (probably made for them). Try one sample with 4% of Dimethicone, so you can feel the difference. If your lamellar network is robust enough, there won’t be any problem (the silicone would go either to the oils phase in case it’s compatible with it, or to a separate liquid silicone-only phase, stabilized by the lamellar arrangement).6ketchito said:
@SunilHiwarkat1965 This is Unilever’s patent for better reference: https://patents.google.com/patent/WO2015110511A1/en.You can add your dimethicone along with the rest of your oil phase at high temperature (usually above 75°C, since you have BTAC). Once in your formula, the silicone will decide either to stick with the rest of the oil phase, or migrate itself to a separate phase. It’s like a relative you bring home, either he chooses to stay with the other kids in the same room, or sneaks to its own room (and you’ll have to speep in the couch).
Silicones unlike natural oils don’t give a heavy greasy feel, and even less when delivered through an emulsion.
And one from chemicalmatt ” Slow mixing while slow cooling ” totally changed my perception towards Lamellar Gel Network processing.
I am sure I am just a few steps away from perfect prototype.Thank you once again for your kind help. Shall update shortly.
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@Abdullah, Thank you for the suggestions. For Both HEC & HPMC the MOQ is 25 kg. ( for standard version ) There is no project in pipeline to consume such a large quantity hence I overlooked that option.
Also personally I wanted to make LGN without any additional support of polymers. In fact this project gave me an opportunity to learn a lot about theory as well practical. I treated this whole exercise as a Golden chance to learn.When working on this project I learned that LGNs are quite robust provided your amphipiles ratio is correct & most importantly your processing is proper. Hence I was always trying optimize the ratio & correct my processing to make it robust instead of using HEC/ CPMC
THANK YOU so much Abdullah for sharing. I am thankful to each & every comment shared on various threads in the context of LGNs.
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@ketchito, Earlier I have done molar ratio calculations @ ratio of 1:3 ( BTAC: Fatty alcohol) Pl. just check.
molecular wt. of BTAC = 404.16 gm/mol.
I used 80% BTAC in Formulation = 1.5% active BTAC
Total molecular wt. Of BTAC = 1.5×404.16 = 606.24
Required ratio of BTAC: cetearyl alcohol = 1:3
And Molecular wt of cetearyl alcohol = 512.94 gm/ mol.
Therefore cetearyl alcohol required
= (606.24×3) ÷ 512.94 = 3.56 gm.
Are these calculations correct? Pl. Correct me if I am wrong.
Thanks in advance. -
Molecular weight of cetearyl alcohol 30/70 is 250.
Below 1:4 ratio the viscosity will be very low. 1:4-1:6 is best for viscosity and stability.
For each % BTAC 1.86% fatty alcohol gives you 1:3 molar ratio
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Hi Abdullah, can you please let me know where can I find literature data on the proper ratio to be used in conditioners?
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@Abdullah, Thank you very much for corrections. I should have checked COA of the supplier. Truly a very big mistake.
Abdullah said:Molecular weight of cetearyl alcohol 30/70 is 250.Below 1:4 ratio the viscosity will be very low. 1:4-1:6 is best for viscosity and stability.
For each % BTAC 1.86% fatty alcohol gives you 1:3 molar ratio
Do you mean active BTAC ?
Would you pl.don’t mind to explain me the molar ratio calculations. I shall be very much obliged if you can spare some time.That will clear my basic concepts.
Thanks in advance -
@SunilHiwarkat1965 Here are some calculations:
1) # moles of BTAC = (1.87g x 0.
/404.16 g/mol = 3.7 x 10-3 moles -> assuming a 100g sample, an 80% active ingredient, and that it’s the only emulsifier in your formula)2) # moles of Cetearyl alcohol = 3.12g / 264 g/mol = 11.8 x 10-3 moles -> assuming a 100g sample, and a 50/50 ratio of stearyl/cetyl alcohols
molar rario emulsifiers/fatty alcohols = 3.7 x 10-3 / 11.8 x 10-3 = 0.3135, which is approximately 1:3.189, which is more or less what @Abdullah mentioned….again, that’s assuming you only have one emulsifier (BTAC). Try increase the amount of your Cetearyl alcohol a bit, to get closer to the 1:4, and check the difference (you’ll have a higher number of “rings” which you’d only see through the use of some equipments, but also you’ll notice an increase in viscosity, stability and lower TEWL once applied on a surface).
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SunilHiwarkat1965 said:@Abdullah, Thank you very much for corrections. I should have checked COA of the supplier. Truly a very big mistake.Abdullah said:Molecular weight of cetearyl alcohol 30/70 is 250.
Below 1:4 ratio the viscosity will be very low. 1:4-1:6 is best for viscosity and stability.
For each % BTAC 1.86% fatty alcohol gives you 1:3 molar ratio
Do you mean active BTAC ?
Would you pl.don’t mind to explain me the molar ratio calculations. I shall be very much obliged if you can spare some time.That will clear my basic concepts.
Thanks in advanceYes active BTAC surfactant.
Every one calculate it their own way.
I do it like this.Suppose A is emulsifier, B is fatty alcohol.
A÷0.molar weight of A×times of fatty alcohol×0.molar weight of fatty alcohol.
This this my formulaNow suppose A is 1% active BTAC molar weight 404.15596. B is cetearyl alcohol molar weight 250.
The ratio you want to be 1:4 4 time the amount of fatty alcohol. It will be calculated like this.1÷0.40415596×4×0.25= ~2.5 fatty alcohol.
So for each % of BTAC at 1:4 molar ratio you will need ~2.5% fatty alcohol.
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ketchito said:@SunilHiwarkat1965 Here are some calculations:
1) # moles of BTAC = (1.87g x 0.
/404.16 g/mol = 3.7 x 10-3 moles -> assuming a 100g sample, an 80% active ingredient, and that it’s the only emulsifier in your formula)2) # moles of Cetearyl alcohol = 3.12g / 264 g/mol = 11.8 x 10-3 moles -> assuming a 100g sample, and a 50/50 ratio of stearyl/cetyl alcohols
molar rario emulsifiers/fatty alcohols = 3.7 x 10-3 / 11.8 x 10-3 = 0.3135, which is approximately 1:3.189, which is more or less what @Abdullah mentioned….again, that’s assuming you only have one emulsifier (BTAC). Try increase the amount of your Cetearyl alcohol a bit, to get closer to the 1:4, and check the difference (you’ll have a higher number of “rings” which you’d only see through the use of some equipments, but also you’ll notice an increase in viscosity, stability and lower TEWL once applied on a surface).
Whole hearted Thank you for providing such a useful calculation.
A very BIG Thank you for bearing with me.
I recollected my memories way back in the year 2000, when I just entered cosmetic field & was struggling to gather basic information. With much efforts I could get Xerox copy of ” Harry’s Cosmetology ” from a local Pharmacy college. That day, I was the happiest person on this earth. Today you enjoyed me the ride of same feel & excitement. Thank you for that. Today I have almost 18 books on Cosmetic science in my library including perry’s Conditioning ingredients for Hair & Skin.what a wonderful Forum, broad minded members, ready to help even for basic information without ego. Feel very proud and fortunate as a member of this forum.
My sincere Thanks to you ketchito.-
Sorry for the late reply, technical issues. I’m glad to hear that, and those two are very nice books. Good luck!
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Abdullah said:SunilHiwarkat1965 said:@Abdullah, Thank you very much for corrections. I should have checked COA of the supplier. Truly a very big mistake.Abdullah said:Molecular weight of cetearyl alcohol 30/70 is 250.
Below 1:4 ratio the viscosity will be very low. 1:4-1:6 is best for viscosity and stability.
For each % BTAC 1.86% fatty alcohol gives you 1:3 molar ratio
Do you mean active BTAC ?
Would you pl.don’t mind to explain me the molar ratio calculations. I shall be very much obliged if you can spare some time.That will clear my basic concepts.
Thanks in advanceYes active BTAC surfactant.
Every one calculate it their own way.
I do it like this.Suppose A is emulsifier, B is fatty alcohol.
A÷0.molar weight of A×times of fatty alcohol×0.molar weight of fatty alcohol.
This this my formulaNow suppose A is 1% active BTAC molar weight 404.15596. B is cetearyl alcohol molar weight 250.
The ratio you want to be 1:4 4 time the amount of fatty alcohol. It will be calculated like this.1÷0.40415596×4×0.25= ~2.5 fatty alcohol.
So for each % of BTAC at 1:4 molar ratio you will need ~2.5% fatty alcohol.
@ Abdullah, wow!!.. you further simplified it. Thank you very very much. Now I can work hurdle free on conditioner project.
I have gone through almost all threads initiated by you & have gathered, stored million dollars worth technical information. Thank you for that also.Shall update very soon.
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You are welcome
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