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Something in the formula stops carbomer from forming a gel
Hello All,
There is something in my formula that stops sodium carbomer from forming a gel. I did a kick-out experiment and ended up with what I think shouldn’t cause any issues, but I still can’t make it thicken. Any advice is appreciated.
Formula:A Aqua 74.55% A Tetrasodium EDTA 0.20% A Glycerine 2.00% A Butylene Glycol 2.00% A Propanediol 1.00% B Jojoba oil 6.00% B Shea butter 3.00% B Petrolatum 3.00% B Tocopheryl Acetate 0.20% B Tocopherol 0.50% B Sorbitan Oleate 1.00% B Glyceryl Oleate 4.00% B Polysorbate 20 1.50% C Sodium Carbomer 0.30% C Paraben DU/phenoxyethanol 0.75% I tried sodium carbomer, ultrez 20 and ultrez 30 (when last two were used I neutralised it with TEA). Nothing works.
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43 Replies
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Stupid question, but did you check pH before neutralizing? And during? If you add too much TEA you will break the gelling if pH is too high. If pH is too low again will not gel.
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Time for a knockout experiment.
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@Dirtnap1please let’s respect each other @ngarayeva001 actually if can not fînd any ingredient wich cause the problem really difficult your problem.
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ngarayeva001 said:Hello All,
There is something in my formula that stops sodium carbomer from forming a gel. I did a kick-out experiment and ended up with what I think shouldn’t cause any issues, but I still can’t make it thicken. Any advice is appreciated.
Formula:A Aqua 74.55% A Tetrasodium EDTA 0.20% A Glycerine 2.00% A Butylene Glycol 2.00% A Propanediol 1.00% B Jojoba oil 6.00% B Shea butter 3.00% B Petrolatum 3.00% B Tocopheryl Acetate 0.20% B Tocopherol 0.50% B Sorbitan Oleate 1.00% B Glyceryl Oleate 4.00% B Polysorbate 20 1.50% C Sodium Carbomer 0.30% C Paraben DU/phenoxyethanol 0.75% I tried sodium carbomer, ultrez 20 and ultrez 30 (when last two were used I neutralised it with TEA). Nothing works.
Was the formula well emulsified, and not separating before adding carbomer?
I believe it has too many oils and little sorbitan oleate and Tween 20.Try with a ready made, commerical emulsifier.
Also, try without EDTA
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@Dirtnap1, It’s SODIUM carbomer. It’s a preneutralised form, so no neutralization is required. And I specified that I used TEA to neutralize versions with ultrez 20 and 30. Neutralise means bring pH to 7.
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@Gunther, the point is actually to figure out this combination. HLB is balanced, product emulsified well. There are sorbitan oleate, 4% of glyceryl oleate and polysorbate 20 (to balance HLB). The reason for such a combination is that I don’t need fatty alcohols and silicones for it, and (if exclude butters and petrolatum) it can be made using cold process.
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That’s usually an electrolyte problem so leaving out the EDTA would be a first good experiment
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Thank you @Perry. This formula is what is left from the initial one. I thought I excluded everything suspicious. You are right, I will try knockout experiment. This must be something in the waterphase.
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An update. I did a knockout experiment. It’s not the waterphase. I excluded heavy butters (petrolatum and shea butter) and it gelled. I don’t know what to think. I didn’t know that butters can impact rheology.
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How about changing the order of addition, Sodium Carbomer before oil phase. And then the rest of the things.
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I just thought that mixing oil phase with gelled waterhpase might have an adverse effect on emulsification… Am I wrong?
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You may neutralize the
carbomer after emulsification… if you neutralize it before, you may have air
bubble entrapment due to high viscosity -
How about adding the carbomer to the heated oil phase?
If I don’t make a Geltrap or HIP W/O emulsion, I practically always put polymers in the oil phase and never had this problem.
I don’t know if it helps, but maybe it’s worth a try?
Good luck!Edit: in a Geltrap or HIPe the gel has to be formed before emulsification and has no adverse effect on the emulsion. I prefer adding polymer to oil phase in other formulations because it’s quicker.
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@jeremien
Where do you read that ngarayeva001 puts the TEA before emulsification? -
@Doreen can carbomer gel the oil ??? and do you neutralize it ? wha process do use for that?
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@Doreen … as i read “gelled waterhpase”, i thought that he have already neutralized it before emulsification… it may be a wrong interpretation
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Guys, I am using Sodium carbomer. It is a preneutralised form of carbomer that doesn’t require any TEA. You simply put it in your water leave it for 10 minutes to hydrate and it turns into a gel. I saw it in many Chanel products and found it on lotioncrafter. It’s a great thing to use in the cool-down phase, because when you add it to the vortex you see the result momentarily, which allows controlling the thickness of the product, so I really recommend to order a small pack if you never used it.
Carbomer aside, I managed to make it work when I knocked out shea butter and petrolatum, which left me very confused. I didn’t know that oil can affect rheology.
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@ngarayeva001 yes sodium carbomer is a product of hydroxide sodium and carbomer so it is neutralized and did not need a neutralizer.
About Shea butter i’am sure that it dosen’t break gel cause i had some experiences about that. -
@ngarayeva001
Not the sodium carbomer, but the Ultrez 20 and 30 where you used TEA to neutralize, I think some people here write about those.@Fekher
No carbomer doesn’t gel the oil phase. I put polymers in the oil phase (when the formula allows it) because this way they don’t hydrate right away and dispersion can be better and quicker.@jeremien
When ngarayeva001 writes about a ‘gelled waterphase’, she is answering Chemist77. She asks that IF you would put it in the water phase wouldn’t that have an adverse effect on emulsification. -
@ngarayeva001 I would be very interested to know the results in case you change the order of addition.
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@Chemist77 I will write an update once I try it.
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I would try adding the sodium carbomer to the oil phase.
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Fekher said:@Dirtnap1please let’s respect each other @ngarayeva001 actually if can not fînd any ingredient wich cause the problem really difficult your problem.
I meant stupid question on my part. No disrespect at all on my part.
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Have you tried using something along the lines of Pemulan TR-1 (2) in place of the sodium carbomer? You mentioned butters, so may be worth a shot.
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