Home Cosmetic Science Talk Formulating “Soaping/whitening” when cream is rubbed into skin

  • “Soaping/whitening” when cream is rubbed into skin

    Posted by Anonymous on January 19, 2014 at 12:02 pm

    I make a cream with 58,5% water phrase, 22% oil phrase with emulsifier Olivem 1000 (Cetearyl Olivate (and) Sorbitan Olivate) used at 7% and OliWax LC (Cetyl Palmitate (and) Sorbitan Palmitate (and) Sorbitan Olivate) used at 2%, Myristyl Myristate used at 2%, as well as Cetearyl Alcohol used at 1%. And a C-phrase with 22% active ingredients. 

    When this cream is rubbed into the skin, it has this soaping effect. I tried making it three times, and I took all the ingredients up to 180F, but I still get the same problem. Why does this happen?
    It doesn’t really melt into the skin untill after you have REALLY rubbed the cream into the skin. It feals nice, but the whitening effect is really annoying. 
    Anonymous replied 10 years, 4 months ago 9 Members · 31 Replies
  • 31 Replies
  • Chemist77

    Member
    January 19, 2014 at 12:14 pm

    Add a little dimethicone (DC 200, 350CS), it should help.

  • Anonymous

    Guest
    January 19, 2014 at 3:44 pm

    No silicone for my products, it’s natural. Any other suggestions @milliachemist

  • Anonymous

    Guest
    January 19, 2014 at 4:57 pm

    http://www.sendspace.com/file/4rq6g3 here is the full formula

    I see a lot of product used Caprylic/Capric Triglyceride, may this do something? Or alcohol, even though I do not want to use alcohol in any of my products. 
    In stead of silicone I could use Yerba Santa Glycoprotein, Bamboo Isoflavones or Bamboo Bioferment
  • Bobzchemist

    Member
    January 19, 2014 at 6:41 pm

    Try some of the Croda emollients, particularly the lighter ones.

  • Anonymous

    Guest
    January 19, 2014 at 6:52 pm

    @Bobzchemist as mentioned before, I don’t do synthetic and I don’t do PPGs. I’m sure there will be great results using PEGs or PPGs, but that won’t work for my brand. I need a way to do things naturally. 

  • Microformulation

    Member
    January 19, 2014 at 7:01 pm

    Cognis has a whole line of Green Ecocert emollients in their Cetiol series and they work well.

    Lastly, what Natural standard are you following? I am never impressed with undefined “Natural.” Following a credible standard is tantamount.

  • Chemist77

    Member
    January 19, 2014 at 9:23 pm

    @ELDEskin I am sorry but I cant really suggest any natural stuff, not really well versed with the natural concept.

  • ChemWizard

    Member
    January 19, 2014 at 11:26 pm

    Olivem 1000 gives soaping effect. You can cut down the level and may use glyceryl srearate or sucrose stearate

  • Anonymous

    Guest
    January 20, 2014 at 1:44 am

    @ChemWizard what’s so annoying is that it said on the product page that Olivem 1000 wouldn’t give ANY soaping effect..

  • simona

    Member
    January 20, 2014 at 2:59 am

    @ELDEskin - in my oppinion, saying that you do not use synthetics is a non sense. All your emulsifiers (and preservatives and proteins and so on) are synthesized in a lab in a controlled environment, they do not grow on trees…. 


    Is this product intended for face or body? what type of skin? 
  • Anonymous

    Guest
    January 20, 2014 at 4:24 am

    @simona well we use naturally derived ingredients. 

    The product is intended for face and for all types of skin. Escecially for balacing oily/acne-prone skin types. 
    Do anybody think this would work as a good emulsifier?
    Cetearyl Alcohol (2%), Glyceryl Stearate (2,5%) and Sodium Stearoyl Lactylate (2,5%) would work? 
  • simona

    Member
    January 20, 2014 at 4:34 am

    ELDEskin - it all depends on your overall formula, the type of oils you choose, other additives…. IMHO, use an HLB calculator to check the recommended % of glyceryl stearate and sodium stearoyl lactylate in your formula.

  • Anonymous

    Guest
    January 20, 2014 at 4:54 am

    @Microformulation We try to us as many EcoCert ingredients as possible. As well as natural extracts, and organic extract, botanicals, biofermets etc that is not certified, as we trust the supplier. 

  • Anonymous

    Guest
    January 20, 2014 at 4:57 am

    @simona Thanks, do you know any good HBO calculatator? 

  • MakingSkincare

    Member
    January 20, 2014 at 5:49 am

    You can download one from here - http://makingskincare.com/hlb-calculator/

  • Bobzchemist

    Member
    January 20, 2014 at 9:47 am

    1) Not everything from Croda is synthetic: http://www.specialchem4cosmetics.com/tds/cronatural-brazil-nut-oil/croda/2708/index.aspx

    2) Learning how to run a set of experiments to figure out whats going on with your formula is an important skill for a cosmetic chemist. Have you tried varying your emulsifier levels? 
    3) I’ve found it useful to build natural formulas by starting with the “natural” surfactants (because there are so few of them) and then figuring out which oils work best with them, rather then the more traditional way.
  • Anonymous

    Guest
    January 20, 2014 at 3:12 pm

    Thanks for the tips @Bobzchemist

    I tried only using Olivem 1000 at 6% and OlivWax LC at 1% and Olive Oil at 10%. As well as water and gelling agent for stabilizing (Xanthan Gum). Works well so far. I will try to replace the water with the actives in a later try. 
    Another problem is that the cold phrase is 20%, and this means that the emulsion will be thinned out. A solvent for this problem may be that I need to make the “base cream” thinker, so it will not get runny when watery actives is added. May this have anything to do with the soaping? 
  • Microformulation

    Member
    January 20, 2014 at 7:32 pm

    Everything I make is Natural. I only use the first 92 naturally appearing elements in the Periodic table.

  • alchemist

    Member
    January 20, 2014 at 7:42 pm

    Must be expensive getting hold of the natural Technetium  :-O

  • Microformulation

    Member
    January 20, 2014 at 7:52 pm

    I order it from Dr. Brown whenever he restocks his Plutonium for the Delorean.

  • Chemist77

    Member
    January 20, 2014 at 9:20 pm

    @Micro like the logic :-)

  • Gustavo

    Member
    January 21, 2014 at 7:38 am

    Well @Bobzchemist mentioned the most important at all. You have to run some tests. It’s part of a cosmetic chemist routine. Another very important issue is: always question what’s said by suppliers and their websites/brochures, etc. I’m not saying they tell lies but not so absolute true statements.

    This soaping effect my be caused by (1) emulsifiers balance, (2) excessive amounts of mineral oil, petrolatum and cetearyl alcohol (by excessive please understand any amount above the supported by HLB balance). (3) high amounts of proteins and/or aminoacids, (4) surfactants present in raw material emulsions/microemulsions (to make them dispersible or solluble in water)… and some other, but most of times these are the reasons why.
    First of all: calculate your HLB required and balance your emulsifiers after that. Then you may change some raw materials or add others. Glycerin helps descreasing foam. If you keep trying without much success try suggesting your formula as an aerosol (or any similar) mousse, instead of a regular cream or lotion. If your products is already foamy when applied, no one will care if it still is foamy during application. That’s not a joke. I do mean it.
  • Bobzchemist

    Member
    January 21, 2014 at 10:07 am

    Perry has written extensively about the use of knock-out experiments to diagnose formulation problems.

    There is another diagnostic step after knock-outs that has gotten less attention: Determining the Performance Envelope. (yes, I unabashedly stole that term from aviation)
    Think about a simple, 3-ingredient emulsion: Oil, water, emulsifier. We don’t really need to run a knock-out experiment to figure this out, but bear with me for a moment. After running a knock-out experiment, we now know that the oil and water won’t be stable without the emulsifier. We have decided that we want 20% oil in our emulsion (for aesthetic and/or performance reasons that have nothing to do with stability). 

    This is the time when you could run a performance envelope study. By making a number of batches varying the ratio of water to emulsifier, you are testing to see where the minimum level of emulsifier is to keep the emulsion stable (at a given level of oil), where the maximum level of emulsifier is (sometimes determined by stability, sometimes by cost or aesthetics) and at least approximately where the optimum level of emulsifier is. You may not have complete results until after you let your series go through accelerated stability testing, though.

    This gets rapidly more complex the more ingredients you have to test. That’s why the running the knock-out series first is so critical - it lets you strip your formula down to the essential ingredients first.
  • Bobzchemist

    Member
    January 21, 2014 at 10:13 am

    The complexity of this kind of study, and the amount of time it takes, is one of the main reasons why many professional cosmetic chemists have only one or two “favorite” emulsifier combinations. Once you develop a versatile system that works consistently, you tend to stick with it, and the more you use it, the faster you are able to optimize a formula with that system.

  • Microformulation

    Member
    January 21, 2014 at 11:53 am

    @Bobzchemist Interesting perspective but you are right that it would be difficult to perform these studies under a deadline. In my practice I have more leeway to do so but I can remember my days in Contract Manufacturing. I would have had to barricade myself into the lab to get that much time.

    I do see the resistance to do knock-off experiments especially in Chemists newer to the Field. They believe that they can design a Formulation on paper and it will perform flawlessly. I think it is crucial for them in regards to career development to see how these Formulas don’t always equate to real world experience. I have learned as much from my unsuccessful bench jobs as I have learned from my successful ones.

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