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Should I dilute sulfonic acid before neutralizing it with Sodium hydroxide ?
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I just got some Potassium hydroxide to see if it’s better than NaOH in case the cloudiness is from excess sulfonate concentration, as some of my cloudy formulations became clear yellow when diluting them.
Pretty much the problem remains.
So either LABSA must be added to NaOH or KOH real slow, over several hours.
Adding LABSA slowly over several minutes doesn’t seem to work as LABSA is a thick liquid that just sits on the bottom, slow to dissolve.or LABSA must be diluted in some water first (it remains a thick liquid after dilution) and then slowly add the hydroxide.
BTW I tried switching LABSA suppliers (one LABSA is a bit darker than the other) and the problem remains.
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What else is in your formula?.
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DAS said:What else is in your formula?.
While the formula contains SLES, EDTA, preservative,
Only water Sodium/Potassium hydroxide and LABSA have been added at this point.
I’ll try
Phase A
Water
KOHPhase B
Water
LABSA
allow to hydrate and dilute overnightThen slowly pour Phase B into A, real slow.
If it doesn’t work, I’ll try neutralizing LABSA with baking soda, to see if the highly alkaline NaOH/KOH is decomposing LABSA.
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Don’t try baking soda unless you want to see a volcano.Try neutralising with Triethanolamine (TEA) or a mix of TEA and NaOH as the neutralising agents (add NaOH to water first, then LABSA and then add TEA).It seems that your problem is the solubility of the neutralised LABSA. I think the TEA salt is more soluble than the sodium salt (not sure how it compares to the KOH).At 10% LABSA you are probably over the solubility limit of the sodium salt. Hence why when you dilute your solutions become clear.Also are you stirring during neutralisation? -
I am still dumbfounded about this problem, I would generally take the batch water. Throw in the sodium hydroxide, let it mix and slowly pour in the LABSA 96%. And there is absolutely no problems at all, why today only I made a 5 MT batch of dish wash liquid with the same procedure. Hopefully @ozgirl’s suggestions can do the trick for uou.
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@Chemist77 interesting that you start with naoh and not with the sulphonic. How do you then neutralise before adding the surfactants?
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I just check the clarity and the final adjustment of pH at the end of process.
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Chemist77 said:I am still dumbfounded about this problem, I would generally take the batch water. Throw in the sodium hydroxide, let it mix and slowly pour in the LABSA 96%. And there is absolutely no problems at all, why today only I made a 5 MT batch of dish wash liquid with the same procedure. Hopefully @ozgirl’s suggestions can do the trick for uou.
Did you get some white streaks immediately after LABSA is poured into NaOH, even if they then disappear?
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aaaaaa There is no problem with your material….. It happened to me as well with the same material I uses, what I think what happened was I didnt gave time to each liquid to dissolve completely and poured whole of it at once. It is better for your to divide the water that you are going to use in the process in to two and dilute the sulfuic in the water and then pour slowly the NAOH to neutralize it. don’t mix it with other materials until it cools down, that’s my experience
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white streaks are the fumes that formed due to reaction of two materials….
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No Gunther there is no streaking. Its straight clear solution, I suppose my LABSA is absolutely a high grade product. That is the only explanation I can think of.
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I wonder if 15% LABSA is too much
This 3X concentrated liquid laundry detergent advises to use
‘First add deionized water (29.15%), followed by potassium hydroxide 45% solution (6.1%) in an appropriate beaker. Start mixing and slowly add Calsoft LAS-99 (10%) …’
https://www.happi.com/contents/view_features/2012-04-02/formulating-liquid-laundry-detergentsPilot Chemical’ Calsoft LAS-99 seems to be 97%+ pure LABSA (DDBSA = LABSA as far as I know)
OTOH this premium dishwash formulation advises 9.60% or 19.20% DDBSA
https://www.happi.com/contents/view_/2011-03-04/formulating-manual-dishwash-detergents
The chart is too small to read but the transcript can be read here
https://www.thefreelibrary.com/Formulating+manual+dishwash+detergents%3A+an+optimum+hand+dishwash…-a0252100205And that using Sodium hydroxide, it doesn’t mention that Potassium hydroxide is really needed (Potassium salts are usually more soluble than Sodium ones).
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Gunther said:I wonder if 15% LABSA is too much
15% isnt too much, i have used 18% labsa with naoh alone to get a viscosity similar to a famous brand in my country, and worked exccelent, it was clear and light yellow.
Today im ussing arround 8%, ussing sles / betaine to build viscosity.
I have found that mixing and avoiding the mixture to heat helps to get a lighter color and clearness
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Hello I am new here and I would like to ask you about neutralising ABS Acid with NaOH. I’ve hot 30% ABS Acid which is yelowish, and I add drop by drop 30% NaOH. My problem is to get pH approximatelly 8. I’ve got at the begining pH 2 and after adding NaOH it is changing to 12 and IT is difficult to me to get pH 8. Do you know what I am doing wrong?
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1. Do the stoichiometry.
2. Add 90% of the calculated amount.
3. Check the pH.
4. Titrate to get the pH correct.
5. Record the figures and use that for future batches. -
Dilute the alkali further and try again the titration as @Belassi mentioned
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In late Feb last year someone noted: Here in Egypt most of us use the 2nd kind of ABS that 1 kg neutralize with NaOH 180 gram
So 100g of ABS would need 18g of NaOH.
May I ask how you are measuring pH? -
Thank you @Belassi and @Chemist77, I will dilute NaOH to be more precisely.
@Belassi I am using electronical pH meter with electrode.
Could you tell me what pH do You obtain? And what temperature are you geting through whole process? -
I’m just a chemist, I don’t get involved with household products.
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@Belassi ok:-) perhaps @Chemist77 could help:-)
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I’ve got another question. I made neutralisation and after night I get product with pH 8. But my sample delaminate…On the top my pH is 8, and on the bottom pH is 12. Should I change the quantity of NaOH…? -
Try mixing it, check the pH and adjust again. It should be crystal clear, no other way. Or your ABS is just not a good one here.
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@Chemist thanks, do you think that the Sodium Lauryl Benzene sulfonate (LABSA Sodium Salt) is on the bottom or on the top of this beaker?
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Can’t say tbh, you need to do it again and see what’s the problem. It’s a wild pH with LABSA neutralization, go pretty slow.
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@Chemist I will mix it. Could you tell me did you mix 96% LABSA with diluted NaOH (eg. 30 %)?
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