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Poloxamer 407
My new ‘toy’ is Poloxamer 407. It is an amazing surfactant which does not leave slimy nor smooth residue after/during washing. This could be the reason why it is not popular.
My question is — is there such thing as ‘fake’ Poloxamer 407?
Made 16% Poloxamer 407. Only water and nothing else is added. Looks good. Not thick.
I applied some of it on my palm. Does not thicken. I thought not enough heat. I sit the whole container in water bath, slowly heating it up. Still not becoming thick. Water is already boiling, still not becoming thick.
What am I not doing right? Am I expecting the wrong thing? What is the actual concentration will Poloxamer 407 thicken at a certain temperature?
From the many literature that I read, the more concentrated Poloxamer 407 is, it thickens at lower temperature. 15% seems to be the ‘sweet spot’ get thick at body temperature. It should be thickened at lower than body temperature since it is 16%, in theory.
In relation to surfactant property, it is there. Random cooking oil is added at random concentration. Oil droplets are still there after many hours. So, for this part, Poloxamer 407 that I have is ‘real’.
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9 Replies
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in my experience it’s very, very, very slow to dissolve and hydrate, and the process gets slower at high concentrations -
Hmm. Must be a misunderstanding. I did not write/explain clearly, perhaps.
It is already properly dissolved and hydrated. There is no ‘lump’ that can be seen.
What I mean it the ‘gelling effect’ at a certain temperature. It is said that (or I read) it ‘gels’ at a certain temperature at a certain high enough concentration.
In (most) pharmaceutical compounding, it gels at about 37℃ when concentration is about 15%.
I made it 16% to HOPEFULLY see that it gels. Higher concentration, more guaranteed. This is what I thought. It does not gel, sadly.While typing my question over here yesterday, I made 30% of it. Still does not gel at ambient temperature which is about 32℃!
Not gelling at such high (enough) temperature still does not gel is exactly the reason why I am frustrated about, and metaphorically screaming for assistance.
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You need 20-30% of it to gel. Also put it to the fridge to hydrate properly. I personally never use it as a gel. I use it in micellar water at 1-2%.
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I did mention that I later made 30% of it. Still not gelling at any ‘high temperature’.
Yes. I put the whole thing in the refrigerator to “do the work” for me.
I asked the seller if it is a gel. He/she says it is gel. I wondered how is that a gel! I showed that person what a Poloxamer 407 gel looks like, that seller still defended themselves and asked me to make it more concentrated.
I asked how concentrated it needs to be to gel. That seller says as concentrated as it needs to be. This is already a joke. Pointless to argue anymore. That seller clearly is either fooling me or does not know what he/she is selling, or both. I will return it and get my refund. Thankfully I can return it!
Not an issue for micellar/solubilising/emulsifying part. I randomly added cooking oil at random amount, oil droplets stay divided.
The previous 16% also has no problem, oil droplets stay divided.
Oil droplets probably do not stay separated at 1-2%. It works, on paper. I have not tried it actually because I already have bias against the seller selling me something else. I am already frustrated compounded by such idiocy of such seller. It is nearly impossible to get the right answer and the right thing in where I live. Too many sellers and businesses here are dismissive and ignorant, but they treat customers as if every customer is stupid as feck. Many sellers here intentionally stretch their luck by selling “wrong things” to buyers so that they (sellers) earn more money if buyers are stupid enough not to notice, analyse, interrogate, and return. Insanely many businesses in this continent are unscrupulous.
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https://www.instagram.com/reel/CZ9yTqRoSr3/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=
I tried it as a gel once and it worked. There’s also a video by makingskicare above where it gels. Something must be wrong either with your process or the ingredient. I bought mine from an Italian supplier. -
My Gad! That is beau! A lovely sight!
My process cannot be wrong. I am not denying. Hahahahah!
I do not know how it can be wrong when it is straightforward. Most importantly, that thing is fully ‘gone’ in water. Smooth thick liquid.
Some people say cold or hot method matters. Cold method is superior to hot method. Only cold method can ‘take in’ more of the chemical. The upper limit could be 30%. And so, I do the cold one. 30% is a lot but it mixes with water nicely.
I did all I could and within my means and understanding. The next logical ‘blame’ is putting the blame on the seller. I initiated the refund, only then the seller was willing to ask his/her supplier. Too late! Return/refund is limited to only 7 days. I am not playing their game. Only science knows how long they make me wait.
I do not know where their Poloxamer is from! I do not even know whether it is truly 407 or something else! The seller says they are only trader and hence they know nothing. This is what I mentioned before this. Loads of sellers doing that mind-fecking people. It is a game of tolerance, persistence, and idiocy. They are happy if you do not catch them and not elevate the issue because they got more money by selling the worst and cheapest stuff. Confidence game.
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having worked with poloxamer 407, the genuine article is a white powder that lumps up in water, generates some foam on mixing, and takes a long time and a lot of shear to dissolve/hydrate in the absence of any other additivesin alcohol, it will not dissolve at all at temperatures below 20 °Cif your material doesn’t meet this description, it’s probably not poloxamer 407
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Hmm. @Bill_Toge did you mean eutectic mixture?
Now that is odd. According to some articles I read, there is no long time or hard work to dissolve/hydrate Poloxamer 407. What pops up the most is “low temperature” at about 5 to 6 Centigrade.
So… there is the check list :
1) Easily dissolve/hydrate in cold water (only water and Poloxamer 407. Nothing else).
2) Oh. Mine comes in round thing. I think it is called ‘prill’. No chance to seeing powder clump in water. However, prills do not get dissolved/hydrated in water fast. It does take a long time to disappear even in cold water, so probably this part is the “long time and a lot of shear”.
3) It does generate foam. Not some. Loads of foam. I manually shake the whole thing and therefore explains the crazy foam. Hahahahah!
4) It does solubilise/emulsify oil. Oil droplets stay as droplets for a very long time. This is at 16%. Not 30% one. “Very long time” in this context is approximately 24 hours.
5) I do not spend much time playing with alcohol. In that show time, however, Poloxamer 407 does not appear to budge.
Sounds and looks like characteristics of Poloxamer 407, yes? But it just does not gel at body temperature or higher. Not even at room temperature (approx. 32 Centigrade) at 30%. This is peculiar.
After reading so much theory rather than practical (because it is impossible for me to get any species of Poloxamer in this country in small amount), my educated guess is it could be Poloxamer 188, could be the molecular weight not high enough.
Average molecular weight of Poloxamer 188 is 8400, and Poloxamer 407 is 12600.
Having said that, I do not know whether Poloxamer 188 gels at similar temperature as Poloxamer 407 or not, because all pharmaceutical ones focus only on Poloxamer 407. Maybe Poloxamer 188 does not gel the way Poloxamer 407 does so Poloxamer 188 is not used.
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Once I had an experiment to mix salicylic acid with poloxamer liquid. It reacted to form lumps of gel in water. So you can try this to check if it Poloxamer in bought solution. This also described in https://patents.google.com/patent/EP2242476A2/en:
For example salicylic acid can cause Poloxamer to gel
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