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IT WORKS!
This subject comes to me almost the wrong and right timing! Reading a comment of @Perry reminds me of a forked up “discussion” with a person. A person who unfortunately is my friend.
https://chemistscorner.com/cosmeticsciencetalk/discussion/comment/67312/#Comment_67312
There is no discussion anyway. There was so much fallacy label popping one after another on end. I thought it is common from people who are irrational (almost always are believers). But THAT coming from a person who is known to be rational is certainly UNBELIEVABLE! As Michael Shermer said, smart people can believe in stupid things.
My question for today is — how do you, scientists and philosophers in this site, normally answer or wallop believers when they say “It works” without being dragged down to their level and get beaten by their experience?
I found that @Bobzchemist has an excellent argument.
https://chemistscorner.com/cosmeticsciencetalk/discussion/comment/3532/#Comment_3532
That is the common approach. Humanitarian and Hippocratic approach. I use it a lot because it is common. But it is no longer works which is why I am here! Believers nowadays are getting more and more educated in becoming more irrational. I of course will leave people to their own demise for I am no hero. I do not like hard work and I do not like to work hard. Problem with those people is they ALWAYS drag other people down with them and impose their beliefs on people. Damage of misinformation is real.
I have a book titled Transformation Classroom Management by John Shindler. I do not feel it is narrow enough, although it definitely can be extrapolated upon all parts of life. I mean, in context of science, more of a “purist” type. I know that it is one of the relevance fallacies, but it is not focused enough because I do not know anyone speaking specifically about “it works”. It is impossible for me to find anything like this even with Google University! It is diamond that I even have a book that actually mentions it!
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5 Replies
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I wonder why no one responses to this ‘humble’ post of mine. LMAO!
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Looks like you answered your own question
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Perhaps it was that you “buried the lead”. It wasn’t clear what the question was.
But I’m assuming this is it… “how do you, scientists and philosophers in this site, normally answer or wallop believers when they say ‘It works’ without being dragged down to their level and get beaten by their experience?”
My response is typically the question “what evidence has convinced you that it worked?” Maybe they are seeing something you didn’t see.As you can see from the response to that previous thread I’m also not afraid to admit when my philosophical outlook on life does not mesh well enough with another person to continue the discussion.
If something “works” for a person, then we should just assume that it does work for them. However, we shouldn’t assume their explanation for why it works has any validity. Much of the performance of a product / ingredient is the result of psychological effects rather than physical/chemical effects. When someone spends $80 on 1 ounce of lotion, they are going to believe that it works miracles no matter what it actually does.
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@Perry
The question with a question mark, is the question. And it is not rhetorical. Hahahahah! I understand that I might have (or really) “drowned” my question.
TL;DR : That is the way I write in virtual reality. I say things in similar or identical fashion in reality. I am long-winded for valid reasons.There are a great many people who I come and came across. They have different “peculiar” ways of understanding things. My way of writing and speaking has been what is called “long-winded”. I do it due to valid and obvious reasons. Not that I like to do it as it wastes my own time.
I have read posts and comments in this group/site long enough to see the dynamics. A few individuals are known to shoot back with “Why not you test/try it out” and end of story, rather than offering actual assistance. Response like this is evident in posts which have questions that are simple and direct. It is therefore “wise” for me to first do my homework in order to cover all possible counterarguments/questions. This way, I get answers in the shortest time possible without people keep digging me for clarification. Hence why the long-windedness.
Thus, my posts and questions are always towards people who matter. Not just any people, of course!
“It can scarcely be denied that the supreme goal of all theory is to make the irreducible basic elements as simple and as few as possible without having to surrender the adequate representation of a single datum of experience.“(Incorrectly known as “Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler“.)
Ah, yes, yes. I absolutely understand what you mean (referring to you last paragraph). It is named “sunk cost” in psychology. The more they pay for something, the more they want to believe and convince themselves that that something works even when that something is obviously not working. But of course, their definition of “works” refers to short-lived-ness. By their logic, then everything works! The word “improvement” would not have existed! Learning and progress would be impossible! Makes sense! They are stagnated in where they are!
The fundamental cause of the trouble is that in the modern world the fools and fanatics are so certain of themselves while the wise is full of doubt. Even those of the intelligent who believe that they have a nostrum are too individualistic to combine with other intelligent men from whom they differ on minor points. -
I would guess the “Why not you test/try it out” responses are most often a result of people not having enough information or really knowing the answer.
Many fundamental questions in cosmetic formulating are not widely known. The vast majority of relevant research, if it has been done at all, has been done on company time & is a corporate secret. Unless a chemist has worked on a specific question themselves, it’s likely they can only guess at the answer.
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