Hyaluronic and ferulic acids: useful, or waste of money & resources?

With Hyaluronic Acid, you’re good with 0.2% to 0.3%, but you can add as much as you like. It’s a pricey ingredient, on the order of $0.50 per gram. There were some nice NIH studies that showed good effects at 0.2%. Note that there are two different molecular weights of Hyaluronic Acid, regular and super low molecular weight. The regular weight will gel or thicken your formulation, the SLMW will not. SLMW will penetrate the SC, the regular weight will sit on the surface of the skin and form a barrier-film, so they have different functional properties.

With Ferulic Acid, 0.5% to 1.0% is just fine. Well proven that Ferulic + Vitamin C + Vitamin E (the Skinceuticals patent/formulation) is very effective for photoaged skin.

Margaret2

Member

December 17, 2014 at 12:52 am

Hello people,

Thanks so much for all the info. re hyaluronic acid & ferulic acids!

You can buy these ingredients at …..

http://www.lotioncrafter.com. They are in Washington state.

In the search window of Lotion Crafter, enter: Ferulic acid. Then choose the option ‘C & E with Ferulic Acid Kit’. (The kit is $60 OR you can buy the ingredients separately, which is what I plan on doing). When you get to the page with the above-mentioned kit, click on FORMULARY and they have a do-it-yourself recipe, the knock-off for Skinceuticals’ C & E serum.

The cost of ONE GRAM of ferulic acid is $4.95, enough for 200 grams of the above-mentioned concoction. It is used at 0.5% in this recipe.

Because I am here in Canada, I don’t want to buy unnecessary ingredients from the U.S., if I can make substitutions, SO my other questions are:

1) The recipe calls for ethoxydiglycol. Would I be able to get away with merely using more propylene glycol?
2) Recipe calls for Laureth-23. Could I just use emulsifying wax NF?
3) Could I use Germall plus liquid instead of Phenoxyethanol to preserve?

Ferulic acid is naturally found in rice bran oil and flax seeds (Wikipedia). This ferulic acid from Lotion Crafter comes from Japan, so they’re getting it from rice bran.

Thanks so much for the messages!

otherhalf

Member

December 17, 2014 at 6:37 am

MPbio and sigma sell the acid for 1/4 of the price.

It is closer to one dollar per gram.

Microformulation

Member

December 17, 2014 at 7:11 am

Orient Stars in Northern California sells Ferulic acid.

http://www.manta.com/c/mtvm601/orient-stars-llc

MarkBroussard

Member

December 17, 2014 at 9:10 am

Margreat:

You are aware that the Skinceuticals patent is still in effect? So, not a good idea to knock it off directly, although there is a company with a CE Ferulic Serum on the market with identical ingredients, but they are taking a risk.

The Laureth-23 is to solubilize the Vitamin E .. you can substitute anything that works and is compatible with your formula.

Yep, Liquid Germall should work.

Margaret2

Member

December 17, 2014 at 1:11 pm

I made a mistake with the price of the ferulic acid at Lotion Crafter, not that it’s overly important. It’s $2.95 for one gram.
I will not make the serum to sell, it’ll just be for me! Me! Me! I hadn’t even heard of this Skinceuticals company till I “googled” it after reading the serum recipe at Lotion Crafter.

Peace out, or something like that…

OldPerry

Member

December 17, 2014 at 5:38 pm

Interesting discussion.

I’d just like to point out that the studies referenced above are not compelling & I remain unconvinced of the benefit of adding Hyaluronic Acid or Ferulic Acid (beyond standard moisturizing). I could be convinced but there are a few nagging issues.

Some of these were not controlled studies. I’m left wondering was it the HA or FA that was having the effect or was it the cream base they were put in? Was it the daily application of a product that caused the effect? Was the HA or FA working as a moisturizer or humectant? How would it compare to a Petrolatum lotion?

With all of these ingredients and products we scientists need to keep our skeptical eyes open.

OldPerry

Member

December 17, 2014 at 5:44 pm

To answer the initial question I’d vote ‘waste of resources and money’.

If I were formulating an anti-aging skin cream and wanted to include Hyaluronic Acid or Ferulic Acid in the formula for their label appeal, I would make a really good moisturizing cream (using stuff like petrolatum, mineral oil and glycerin) then put a drop of either of those ingredients in the formula.

You would be hard pressed to find any consumer (or even a dermatologist) who would be able to tell a difference in performance after 6 weeks use on a blinded basis.

I would love to see this study done.

otherhalf

Member

December 17, 2014 at 6:00 pm

@perry

None of the compounds you mentioned have any action at the DNA level, just at overall fibre deposition and lipidic composition so I guess they are not comparable at all.

They both have benefits but they can’t be put at the same level.

Also regarding the effect of the hyaluronic acid on the skin: it is a bit beyond the functions of humectant or moisturizer, by intercalating the extracellular matrix it is able to improve cell cell communication and in this way promote proliferation hence it’s use in neural surgery patches and cartilage recovery.

OldPerry

Member

December 17, 2014 at 6:58 pm

I don’t know what you mean by this…”They both have benefits but they can’t be put at the same level.”

When someone uses a skin cream they expect certain benefits. If it’s reduction of wrinkles (or the appearance of that) then any ingredient that does that is comparable.

While I understand the theoretical & potential effects of HA, how would you prove that it is not just having a moisturizing effect from a topical treatment? What measurement would you take to prove this?

I can understand it’s use in surgery but that’s internal. The skin is an incredibly good barrier against most substances put on it so lots of things that work on human cell cultures or inside the body, don’t work when applied topically.

otherhalf

Member

December 17, 2014 at 9:23 pm

@perry

This is the cellular function of ha
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/24658508/?i=3&from=hyaluronic%20acid%20skin%20metabolism
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/24487587/?i=9&from=hyaluronic%20acid%20skin%20metabolism

Regarding on how to test the effect, the ideal would be a scrape and seq.

Zink

Member

December 17, 2014 at 9:34 pm

Cool that Skinceuticals and Jan E. Zielinski + Sheldon R. Pinnell patented a Ferulic + Vitamin C + Vitamin E combo and published the nature paper on it: http://www.nature.com/jid/journal/v125/n4/full/5603565a.html

Regarding HA, the devil is, as usual, in the details. You can get more than two types, you can get a range from a few thousand Dalton to several hundred thousand Dalton MW molecules.

Here’s a paper looking at in vivo effects of 20 kDa to 320 kDa : 2008 Low Molecular Weight Hyaluronic Acid: Its Effects on Epidermal Gene Expression & Skin Ageing https://personal-care.evonik.com/product/personal-care/en/media-center/downloads/publications/Documents/sofw-hyacare-50.pdf

Margaret2

Member

December 17, 2014 at 9:42 pm

Looks like I shan’t be spending money anytime soon on ferulic acid & hyaluronic acid then….I’ll pin my hopes on the 30% L-ascorbic acid “lotion” I made this afternoon instead.

Thanks again for all the input(s).

otherhalf

Member

December 17, 2014 at 9:43 pm

@zinc

Yup I know about that paper.

The size does seem to make a huge difference!

But for microsurgery even the biggest one greatly reduced the scar tissue formation.

Microformulation

Member

December 17, 2014 at 9:51 pm

@Margreat Are you saying that you have been able to produce a STABLE 30% L-ascorbic acid lotion?

MarkBroussard

Member

December 18, 2014 at 12:09 am

@microformulation:

She said she just made the 30% L-ascorbic acid lotion today, not that it was stable.

Just a comment, but 30% is an absurd amount of L-Ascorbic acid in a lotion. You’re perfectly fine with up to 10% or so. Second point … the CE Ferulic combination works because the Vitamin E and Ferulic + Vitamin C provides some Vit C stability enhancement and produces an 8X improvement over the use of any one ingredient alone.

A 30% L-ascorbic acid lotion without Vitamin E and Ferulic might last … maybe a week? … before it starts turning yellow as the Vitamin C oxidizes.

@Margreat: Do yourself a favor … don’t make more than a one week supply, otherwise you will be wasting your ingredients.

Microformulation

Member

December 18, 2014 at 6:06 am

At 30% L-ascorbic acid the increased irritation would certainly offset any additional benefit. As MarkBroussard rightfully pointed out, it won’t be a 30% L-ascorbic acid lotion for very long.

OldPerry

Member

December 18, 2014 at 8:45 am

I think many of you are avoiding answering the original question.

Is the addition of HA or FA useful or a waste of money?

I have yet to see any evidence that using these ingredients in a skin cream at a significant level has superior effects to a really good moisturizing cream using stuff like petrolatum, mineral oil and glycerin.

If your cream cannot out perform a standard cream you can get all the marketing benefits of adding HA or FA by making a standard cream and putting a few drops of those ingredients in the formula. Putting more than that in the formula without a measurable benefit is a waste of money right?

@Margreat - What benefit are you trying to achieve by using 30% L-ascorbic acid?

Margaret2

Member

December 23, 2014 at 10:45 pm

I made a mistake in typing when wrote I made/wanted to make a 30% L ascorbic acid concoction. I meant a 20% concoction. I used 30 grams for making a 150 gram batch, thus the 30 number sticking in my head. Sorry for the confusion & wasted discussion time!

My reason for trying to make a 20% L ascorbic acid concoction is that it was reported on The Beauty Brains that only L ascorbic acid has proven effect in decreasing sun-related spots on the skin. The vitamin C will remain stable only if it’s in an anhydrous mix OR if the pH is 3.5 or less.

I am not going to repeat the concoction because it was really VERY greasy anyhow. It might work if I used the proper % of eWax, but now I thought I’d instead make a version of my skin lotion with 20% L ascorbic acid, so long as the pH is 3.5 or less.

Before I try this, I thought I should experiment. I added citric acid to a lotion of mine to bring the pH down below 3.5, to see if it would bother my skin. So far, (3 or 4 days) I have not felt anything different in using this lotion, nor is there reddening of my skin or bulging of the eyes . I only have pH strips, but the pH looks to be either 3 or 3.5, but definitely not pH 4, so I think this is acidic enough according to the research discussed on The Beauty Brains.

I have concluded that I should be able to make a cream (that is, it will contain water, thus NOT anhydrous) & after adding the 20 grams of L ascorbic acid, I’ll check the pH & bring it down to 3.5 or less with a 50% citric acid solution.

I will divide up the cream into smaller glass jars, put what I am not using in a paper bag into the fridge, and keep the jar I would be using at the time in a black drawstring bag, in a drawer (unless it’s application time ! )

Any thoughts as to whether this would be a workable 20% L ascorbic acid cream?

In case anyone’s wondering, I am NOT a cosmetic chemist. I just make lotions & soaps etc. for my own evil purposes. I hope I won’t be asked to kindly (or rudely) leave the forum?

Microformulation

Member

December 24, 2014 at 8:59 am

Even with the low pH you are just delaying the breakdown, not preventing it.