Home Cosmetic Science Talk Formulating Help me break this commercial formulation down, no idea what is going on with it. 🤔 Stumped

  • abdullah

    Member
    June 11, 2021 at 1:43 am

    emma1985 said:
    I’m not sure what you mean by in expense of quality. This product is an intentionally bi-phase product using high quality ingredients. It’s not a failed emulsion. There is no emulsifier.

    I mean you add each ingredient at certain percentage to work best. If the percentage changes during use they will not have that effect any more. For example if you use %4 Glycerin and that work best, if that change to %2 or %8 that will not be the same as %4 in effectiveness of feeling. 

    If the consumer can use the Product without any effort, need to shake several times in each application is a minus point. 

    No emulsifier mean your product will be water thin and runny. Who prefer a runny Product over some viscosity?

    You will not be able to use a lot of good ingredient like butters, waxes, allantoin, petrolatum, etc.

    You use %50 oil phase because you know the bad thing is going to happen. That also increase your cost. I use %10 oil phase, it works well and no worries.

    You use %50 oil, that would not make a noticable difference if it change to %90 or %10. what about ingredients that are used at small amounts and make a difference? They will have negative effects like less efficacy or irritation if percentage increased or decreased. Ingredients like preservatives, AHA/BHA, retinol, perfume, etc.

    For how much time have you used such Products and how many bottles that you are saying the ratio changes from 50/50 to 40/60? I have used my such (failed) Products for years and i know if you don’t use emulsifier the oil and water separate in seconds not even minutes and at the ends of 100g bottle there always is only water phase left. 

    For your preservatives, can you tell how much do you use. I need to see how it will work. When i recalled my bi phase Products the preservation system didn’t work for more than a month or two no matter what and for stable versions i have samples from 2 years ago that are fine. Same formula and same amount of same preservative. 

    Separated phase is better that than no emulsifier. At least they will remain mixed a few minutes after shaking.

    Droppers will be worse because the amount inside the dropper will not mix with rest of it when you shake the bottle.

  • abdullah

    Member
    June 11, 2021 at 2:06 am

    Some times we do something because we like it or because we can’t do otherwise. I did the same. I liked Glyceryl Caprylate as preservative because it had natural name, was mild and inexpensive. Although I knew it is not very effective Preservative, i was hopping that someone tell me it is a robust Preservative. Change is the best thing we can do. 

    I bet if you make the Product one phase, it would be more effective with less cost and you would like it. 

  • Pattsi

    Member
    June 11, 2021 at 3:43 am

    For dropper type dispenser, you could try thicken water phase a bit to hold oil droplets a little longer so they won’t separate immediately, might helps with oil/water ratio throughout the bottle.  

  • emma1985

    Member
    June 15, 2021 at 4:18 am

    Abdullah said:

    Some times we do something because we like it or because we can’t do otherwise. I did the same. I liked Glyceryl Caprylate as preservative because it had natural name, was mild and inexpensive. Although I knew it is not very effective Preservative, i was hopping that someone tell me it is a robust Preservative. Change is the best thing we can do. 

    I bet if you make the Product one phase, it would be more effective with less cost and you would like it. 

    I have emulsified serums in my line. They are nice and some of my bestsellers. This is a completely different product concept. If it absolutely fails, and no one buys it or no one likes it, that’s totally fine. 

    I’ve been through 2 30 mL bottles so far and the oil and water phase ratio did not change beyond 60/40. 

    The product is not thin and runny. I have high molecular weight Hyaluronic Acid in the water layer, and oils with higher viscosity in the oil layer.

    I disagree with your statement about no one liking “runny” products. “Runny” products like toners and essences are absolutely essential in the Korean skincare user community, for example.

    There are no actives in this product, and no fragrance. I do not formulate with essential oils or fragrance.

    Biphase products are very well liked in the skincare communities that I belong to, so it’s not like this is something unheard of or something I totally made up. One of the formulators that I follow just made one on her YouTube channel. Institute of Personal Care Science has several biphase product formulations, as well. So I disagree with your overall attitude that no one will like a biphase product. It seems plenty of people do.

    As I said, I have extremely robust preservatives in both the oil layer and the water layer, and will be testing for contamination in a few weeks. 

    I have a hard time believing that biphase products are impossible to preserve as you claim, given that there are so many on the market. Biphase makeup removers have been around for several decades. As Mark said, using a preservative in each layer with appropriate solubility is a good approach. I’m using Liquid Germall Plus and Phenonip, which are both as close to bulletproof as preservatives get. Maybe you weren’t using an effective preservative in your separated emulsion.

    You said “change is the best thing we can do.” Well, that’s exactly what I’m doing. It’s about experimentation and innovation. It’s the creative part of skincare formulation which is the biggest reason I formulate skincare. 

    https://youtu.be/1_UAzzq84jM

  • emma1985

    Member
    June 15, 2021 at 4:33 am

    Abdullah said:

    Some times we do something because we like it or because we can’t do otherwise. I did the same. I liked Glyceryl Caprylate as preservative because it had natural name, was mild and inexpensive. Although I knew it is not very effective Preservative, i was hopping that someone tell me it is a robust Preservative. Change is the best thing we can do. 

    I bet if you make the Product one phase, it would be more effective with less cost and you would like it. 

    https://youtu.be/0CfQbz2x8KM

  • abdullah

    Member
    June 15, 2021 at 1:35 pm

    Yes these are strong preservatives. At that time i was using geogard 221 which is not very strong as these two and not very water soluble. 

    Wish you success. 

  • teeqa_norsham

    Member
    September 12, 2022 at 5:08 am

    @emma1985 I made a couple of makeup removers in this format. What worked pretty well is using non polar oil (in my case I used D5 and isododecane in another formula) and add 1-1.5% of NaCl to the waterphase. My water phase was rather simple (preservative, some basic humectants, salt and dye). You probably can do something similar just keep oil phase low. In makeup removers it’s close to 50/50. I saw surfactants in some of those formulas but in my experience they might partially emulsify and you will end up with cloudy product. Also type of bottle you use matters. Some types of plastic ‘catch’ droplets and it doesn’t look nice

    Hi Emma, I’m currently doing this bi layer makeup remover. My water phase is rather more or less like yours with 2% salt and I’m using D5 additional of mineral oil or rice bran oil. Both formulation can separate nicely back to 2 layers but it took 1 day to completely separate. Is there any way I can make the separation faster?

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