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  • Formulating

    Posted by SunilHiwarkat1965 on March 19, 2023 at 4:09 am

    Good afternoon everybody.

    My questions are :- 1) How much cosurfactant like Ceteareth-20 is required to stabilize/ thicken cationic hair conditioner formulation with BTMC, Cetostearyl alcohol & Dimethicone ?

    I remember, Some where on this forum it was mentioned as 5- 10 % of total amphipiles. I am not able find that post.

    2) If we add cosurfactant as above; do we need to add salt for stabilizing or viscosity increase ? Or does the salt addition negatively impacts on stability/ viscosity in this case?

    Thanks in advance.

    SunilHiwarkat1965 replied 1 year, 2 months ago 3 Members · 18 Replies
  • 18 Replies
  • ketchito

    March 19, 2023 at 6:52 am

    It’d better if you post your formula. Ceteareth-20 is used as a main emulsifier. The advantage is that you only need low levels (like 0.2-0.3%), but again, that depends on your formula.

  • SunilHiwarkat1965

    March 19, 2023 at 9:49 am

    @ketchito Ok. Here is the formula. Hair Conditioner Batch size 100gm.

    A) Water Phase

    EDTA…. 0.10%

    Water….. qs.

    Glycerine.. 3.00%

    BTAC .. 3.00%

    B) Oil Phase

    Cetearyl alcohol.. 4.67%

    Dimethicon.. 4.50%

    BAPD… 1.00%

    C) 20% Sodium Chloride solution.. 0.25% ( @ 40 degree Celsius)

    D) Cool Down Phase

    Euxyl 510k.. 0.15%

    Fragrance… 0.70%

    As guided by you earlier, I have calculated molar ratio @ 1:3 ( since I have increased BTAC from 1.87% to 3% ; I didn’t opt out for 1:4 molar ratio)

    Thank you for reply

    BTW:- It will very much helpful if you can guide & explain the basic criteria for calculating quantity of Ceteareth20

  • ketchito

    March 19, 2023 at 4:12 pm

    I’d go for the 4:1 molar ratio. With the 3:1 you’d have a more stable product, but in the practice, BTAC is a heavy conditioning agent for hair, so I’d not go as high as 3%. Perhaps you could use 5% of Cetearyl alcohol, and from there, calculate how much BTAC you’d need for your 4:1 ratio.

    In terms of Ceteareth-20, any addition to this system would help. Btw, can you make a sample without Sodium chloride? Systems in which the main emulsifier es ionic (in this case, BTAC), the addition of an inorganic salt could destabilize the system.

  • SunilHiwarkat1965

    March 22, 2023 at 4:56 am

    @Ketchito I have tried a batch without Sodium chloride. Shall update tomorrow. Thank you so much.

    Update:- After 36 hrs viscosity is not in proportion to cetostearyl alcohol used. I think salt addition can make it better & acceptable.

    I shall be taking a commercial batch of 80 kgs within couple of days. Shall update accordingly. Thank you so much for your kind help.

  • Abdullah

    March 22, 2023 at 7:13 am

    What is BAPD?

    As mentioned by @ketchito that much BTAC would not feel good specially in straight hair.

    Have you tested that how does it feel after like 10 use?

    For my hair even 1% is heavy.

    For stability I don’t think you would need another surfactant. Just BTAC and fatty alcohol is enough for LGN. And keep the ratio between 1:4-1-6?

  • SunilHiwarkat1965

    March 22, 2023 at 8:28 am

    BAPD is Bis-Amino Propyl Dimethicone.

    I have tried 2-3 times on my hair.

    Not yet tested repeated use after hair feel. I Wii do that.

    As you said 1:4; 1:5 ratio is definitely enough but I observed viscosity drop during specific fragrance addition & hence opting out for coemulsifyer such as cetereth 20.

    More over I am much worried about inconsistent results may be I couldn’t standardize the process yet.

    Is it - high shear initially for 5 minutes > mix on low shear till 45-40 degrees > again high shear for couple of minutes > mix slowly on low shear till cool down — as mentioned by @ Chemicalmatt in one of the discussion.

    • Abdullah

      March 22, 2023 at 9:17 am

      Why are you not using a thickener like HEC?

      It would be much better for both viscosity and stability than adding another surfactant.

      • SunilHiwarkat1965

        March 22, 2023 at 2:19 pm

        Thank you for your suggestions.

        If it doesn’t work well with BTAC & Cetostearyl alcohol, I have no other option than HEC.

        Will update here once I take batch.

        • ketchito

          March 22, 2023 at 5:20 pm

          This is where Ceteareth-20 comes to play. It can thicken and stabilize the system you’re working on. You can try from 0.2% onwards.

          • SunilHiwarkat1965

            March 22, 2023 at 9:08 pm

            Yes. Thanks once again. Today shall make a commercial batch & share the update. Just wondering How these MNCs can manage it without HEC/ Cetereth 20 ?

          • SunilHiwarkat1965

            March 22, 2023 at 9:21 pm

            I have gone through clarient recommendations ( which you mentioned in one of the discussion), they recommend BTAC & hydrophilic emulsifyer such as cetereth 20 in our case to be melted together & water to be added to this phase. Where as I use to melt BTAC in hot water ; heat silicones & cetereth 20 separately & add it to BTAC solution. My process doesn’t seem to be inline with clarient recommendations. Does it has any impact on stability/ viscosity?

  • ketchito

    March 23, 2023 at 6:32 am

    If you’re preparing the two phases (oil and water phases) separately, and then mixing them together, you could melt your BTAC with the whole oil phase, so you don’t have problem having a homogenous mixture (BTAC has usually the highest melting point of thw waxes). Then, add slowly the oil phase into the water phase with high shear, and keep both temperature and shear for some time (I do that for at least 20 min). Then start cooling down with more or less half the speed you used for your emulsion.

    • SunilHiwarkat1965

      March 23, 2023 at 12:05 pm

      Thanks a lot. I shall follow this process for tomorrow’s batch & will update.

      BTW, today I prepared one commercial batch with 1:4 molar ratio, without cetereth 20 & Sodium chloride. Hope this will be texurised up to the expectations within couple of days.

      I am overwhelmed with your technical support. I feel myself very lucky to be linked with this forum. I am & will always remain grateful to you Ketchito.

      Thank you once again.

    • SunilHiwarkat1965

      March 26, 2023 at 1:59 pm

      Update:- I tried melting BTAC with whole oil phase & added slowly to heated water phase, but I found this process a bit cumbersome so I followed desolving BTAC in heated water phase.

      Made a batch of 80 kg. The batch is stable but needs some improvement. The most difficult moments are addition of fragrance. How slow/ gradually you add fragrance, still loss of viscosity is inevitable.

      Earlier to overcome this issue I have added…. Sodium chloride @ 0.05% @ 40 degree Celsius Also tried to add Cetereth20 @ 0.40%

      but still couldn’t get any viscosity improvement.

      What could be the reason?

      Is the quantity insufficient or otherwise. Kindly advise.

      BTW does addition of cetereth 20 has any impact on molar ratio calculations?

      Thank you for bearing with me.

  • ketchito

    March 23, 2023 at 5:04 pm

    No worries, it’s my pleasure. We are all here to help each other. Good luck!

  • SunilHiwarkat1965

    March 26, 2023 at 2:27 pm

    @ketchito, one more query :-can we recover a failed conditioner batch ?

    Kindly advise a protocol to save it.

    Thanks in advance.

  • ketchito

    March 27, 2023 at 6:06 am

    Hi! Could you describe what went wrong with your batch, and what you want it to look like?

    • SunilHiwarkat1965

      March 27, 2023 at 6:41 am

      One batch is not flowable but it needs some body. In short the pick up of the batch with finger is not solid gives a feeling of hollow ness. It has to be tuned up slightly.

      Another batch is slightly flowable, for that I was asking the process of recovery.

      Waiting eagerly for your valuable suggestions. Thanks with warm regards.

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