Foam Boosting With Cationics

Formulating

Foam Boosting With Cationics

Posted by thebrain on June 1, 2015 at 8:15 pm

Hi,

I have put together a simple shampoo recipe that I like, but I’d like to add something to increase foaming/lather:

    Decyl glucoside 25%
    Glycerin 5%
    Cetrimonium chloride 2%
    Disodium EDTA 0.2%
    Schlerotium gum 0.8%
    Glycol distearate 2%
    Preservative 2%
    Citric acid 0.4%

In this recipe, I have mostly non-ionic ingredients except for the cetac, which is cationic. I have also considered adding cationic guar to make it more conditioning. The decyl glucoside does foam, but it doesn’t make large bubbles, and they dissipate quickly. Can I add an anionic to the mix, or will the positive and negative charges cause a problem? I have never tried to combine both so I’m not sure what would happen.

-B

ngarayeva001 replied 6 years, 2 months ago 6 Members · 13 Replies
13 Replies

Bobzchemist

Member
June 1, 2015 at 9:20 pm

Try it without the glycerin. It inhibits foam.
thebrain

Member
June 1, 2015 at 10:13 pm

@Bobzchemist, I’ll try that, thanks. Am I assuming correctly that I can’t use anionics and cationics together? Is there anything else that I can add to boost foam, e.g. sodium cocoamphoacetate?
belassi

Member
June 1, 2015 at 11:37 pm

I hate to disagree with Bob, who is much more experienced than I, but I think I would reduce the glycerin to 3%; my own tests with sulphate-free formulae show no effect on foam.

It is well known that surfactant combinations generally work better than single surfactants. If you have sodium cocoamphoacetate by all means experiment, try for instance 15% d/g and 10% s/c/a and compare foaming.

You might also add 5% CAPB (cocoamidopropyl betaine) which provides some conditioning due to its cationic ion. It is very cheap and a good foam booster. You might also try adding 1% MEA which will improve viscosity and foam and perhaps allow you to decrease the thickener a little.

I see you’re making a pearled shampoo. The pearling agent will reduce foaming unfortunately.
Bobzchemist

Member
June 2, 2015 at 1:51 pm

Belassi is right, I reacted without looking at percentages. I’ve found that more than 10% - 20% of glycerin reduces foam, even in sulphate-free formulas. I don’t think you’ll see a difference between 3%, 5%, and zero glycerin - BUT!

Here’s a point I’ve been trying to make to a lot of people: YOU SHOULDN’T TAKE OUR WORD FOR IT!

Try it yourself and see. You will not learn without experimenting.
belassi

Member
June 2, 2015 at 2:10 pm

Absolutely what Bob said. Prepare versions and try them yourself, use a standard sheet to record results. Remember sensorials are also important (the hand feel as you use the product)
thebrain

Member
June 2, 2015 at 10:19 pm

Would either of you mind answering my first question, just for my own education? Is mixing anionics with cationics a bad idea, or is it sometimes permissible?
OldPerry

Professional Chemist / Formulator
June 2, 2015 at 10:49 pm

Mixing anionic surfactants with cationic surfactants doesn’t work. You end up with a water insoluble precipitate.

That is the basis for the VO5 hot oil technology which required you to put the product on hair first (it’s a cationic surfactant) and leave it on when you put your anionic surfactant shampoo. The cationic combines with the anionic and you get a nice conditioning effect.

But it your formula you might try substituting Cocotrimonium Chloride for Cetrimonium chloride. The coco version may boost the foam a bit.

FWIW - I don’t think you’ll notice much difference whether you have 5% or 0% glycerin in the formula. It is water soluble and rinses away anyway so you’re not going to get any moisturizing or conditioning effect.
thebrain

Member
June 3, 2015 at 2:03 am

@Perry thanks for the info. I just assumed that would be the case, but I appreciate the confirmation.

I added the glycerin because I use it to pre-mix the sclerotium gum. It makes my life a lot easier when that stuff doesn’t clump. I also read that it supposedly boosts foam, which is why I was surprised when Bob said it does the opposite. I guess I have some experimenting to do!

Thanks for the help, everyone.
Bobzchemist

Member
June 3, 2015 at 1:43 pm

You may find that glycerin+surfactant has a foam curve, like salt+surfactant has a thickening curve. Let us know what you find out.
belassi

Member
June 3, 2015 at 1:58 pm

If you really want additional conditioning you could add say 1% Polyquart H81. It is a film forming psuedo quat.
Leduyhoang2987

Member
January 6, 2019 at 1:06 pm

Hi
I produce my dishwash, i use 7% CAPB and 4% decyl glucoside, 5% glycerin. Foam peformance is bad. Tell me how to change for better foam please?
belassi

Member
January 6, 2019 at 5:28 pm

This is not related to the original question, make a new thread, please.
ngarayeva001

Member
January 6, 2019 at 11:56 pm

Polyquats can be added to anionic products, but centrimonium chloride will either make it separate or causes water insoluble precipitate as Perry mentioned. Glucosides don’t provide the best feel for hair. I would recommend adding CAPB to make it better. And Cocamide DEA will help with thickening. If you add polyquat 10 and cocamide DEA you can skip sclerotium gum and glycerin.